State of the Fleet

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Reminds me of the session a few years back where we had to travel back in time to save Hitler from assassination. Goddamned time-traveling Romulans fuck EVERY thing up.

"Okay, so that's save Hitler, kill JFK, clone Stringberg and transport the Lindberg Baby to Alternative 3–what's the plan for Catherine the Great again?"

"Well..."

[ZeroArmour]

On the subject of the Borg, we'll have to agree to disagree, though I do have one last thing to say.

How much of a threat are the Borg really? They get beaten every single time, they're like Marvel comic's "Juggernaut". "Nothing stops the Juggernaut!"... Well, actually he's been beaten by just about everyone but Howard the Duck! That's the Borg, an unstoppable foe that been stopped everytime.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

On the subject of the Borg, we'll have to agree to disagree, though I do have one last thing to say.

How much of a threat are the Borg really? They get beaten every single time, they're like Marvel comic's "Juggernaut". "Nothing stops the Juggernaut!"... Well, actually he's been beaten by just about everyone but Howard the Duck! That's the Borg, an unstoppable foe that been stopped everytime.

Do you mean 'threatening to players,' or...?

[ZeroArmour]

Do you mean 'threatening to players,' or...?

I mean in a dramatic sense. Sure the Borg are powerful, so powerful infact that they HAVE to be beaten, one victory would mean the end of everything. That doesn't leave much room to built a complex story. Sure Picard debates if we have the right to destroy them in "I Borg" and one or two other eps, but at the end of the day we have few other options in how we deal with them. With any other advisary you can find alternative options, each race has it's quirks and traits that make it possible to deal with them in ways other than force.

Ronald D. Moore said the following about the Borg.
...they're very limiting in the way they are. They're this huge collective with no voice to communicate to and you can't relate to these guys. We keep saying they're unstoppable and if we keep stopping them it undercuts how unstoppable they truly are.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Guinan says, way back in Q Who, that you might be able to negotiate with them, centuries from now–which might be why the Federation still exists in the 29th century. I'm perfectly happy with the insinuation that they end humanoid life in the galaxy as we know it, though.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Ronald D. Moore said the following about the Borg.
...they're very limiting in the way they are. They're this huge collective with no voice to communicate to and you can't relate to these guys. We keep saying they're unstoppable and if we keep stopping them it undercuts how unstoppable they truly are.

A valid point, that. Just a shame Brannon Braga completely ignored it.
"Well, the fans really hated the Kazon, and how we kept having the Kazon showing up attacking Voyager... What could be really cool as a bad guy? A bad guy we can keep wheeling out time and time again? A bad guy Captain Janeway keeps beating?
"Hmm..."

[ZeroArmour]

Guinan says, way back in Q Who, that you might be able to negotiate with them, centuries from now–which might be why the Federation still exists in the 29th century. I'm perfectly happy with the insinuation that they end humanoid life in the galaxy as we know it, though.

And I'm happy with the idea of them being

 

absorbed into the Caeliar's gestalt.

I like my adversaries to be a bit more useful in a dramatic sense.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I've never read the books, and likely never will. So, uh, you're going to have to explain what that means, and why it's spoiler-tag worthy...

[Nuclear Fridge]

In brief - the Caeliar are another super-civilized, super-advanced race with 'godlike' powers who are Cosmic &%&holes. They ignore the rest of the universe, and anyone who stumbles across their home is never allowed to leave. Thanks to some bizarre events, the Borg were created as a side-effect of the NX-02 Columbia finding the Caeliar (and the NX-02 being found in the Gamma Quadrant by Sisko and crew is a footnote to this).

Will Riker and the Titan find the Caeliar, just as the Borg decide to annihilate the Federation and its allies. Cue much superior condescension from the Caeliar, who view the Borg problem as not concerning them. Throw in Captain Ezri Dax and the slipstream drive ship USS Vesta and... I stopped reading at that point. My brains were oozing out of my ears. The Caeliar finally waved a magic wand and made the Borg all go away - incidentally turning Seven of Nine fully human.

[Commander Ramey]

Sorry I was gone a bit... I have to say I feel that the creep in tech was bad with the Borg, and with STO as well, but that is another discussion. I am glad they are gone... I prefer equal but cunning enemies such as the Romulans.

I guess the fleet will be rebuilding with better technology based ships as best and as fast as they can... Which will create a huge gap in older ships such as the Ambassador class that had problems before with keeping up and newer ships that come online for awhile anyway.

Overall I see it as a boon to storytelling - much less dependence on the fleet and more ability of the crew to become famous doing their own missions.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

the Borg were created as a side-effect of the NX-02 Columbia finding the Caeliar

Boo hiss.

[ZeroArmour]

Boo hiss.

I think it's actually a good origin story to the Borg, and wraps them up really nicely.

But what the hey, if you wanna be constantly finding new super weapons to counter the Borg until your Trek looks like a war of wizards...

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I think it's actually a good origin story to the Borg, and wraps them up really nicely.

They're not supervillains, why do they need an origin story? It tiny-fying.

[Nuclear Fridge]

They're not supervillains, why do they need an origin story? It tiny-fying.

Indeed. I found their first story - Q Who? - to be the most interesting. Picard and crew had no idea what they were facing. Their only sources of information were Q and second-hand accounts from Guinan. Picard was as much in the dark about the Borg as we were. They didn't want to talk. They didn't even view the Enterprise-D as much of an obstacle.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

They didn't even view the Enterprise-D as much of an obstacle.

It wasn't even an obstacle, it was a delicious morsel. They were especially space-zombie-like there, and it was pretty cool.