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Thread: Risus Trek

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King View Post
    I like the idea of ships losing dice triggering events or problems: consoles exploding, sudden repairs being needed, weapons or sensors going offline, or other events imperiling the crew (and giving non-pilots something to do).

    But yeah, ships giving you bonus dice is totally what I'd do. For one thing, it gives everyone more stuff to play with, and that's always fun.
    I agree with that, only for me, the events would be triggered when the PCs lose dice, not the ships. But I agree with everything else, mostly.

    Guy

  2. #17
    Tim (Risus Monkey) Ballew has a great post about a similar problem with sailing ships over on his blog ( http://www.risusmonkey.com/2010/02/p...ip-combat.html ). He goes with the Ships as Tools of the Trade approach, but each ship has its own set of Lucky Shots or Questing Dice. The novelty of this approach is that the LS/QD are split up into different areas representing a different ship specific capability. On the RisusTalk mailing list, he points out that this could be something like a couple of dice in photon torpedoes, a few more in warp drive, etc. The ship as is would normally have torpedoes or warp drive, of course, but the extra dice could be used by the characters to enhance their rolls. Dan Suptic threw in some great suggestions:the Questing Dice for a Warship might be "Destroying Ships In My Way", and smugglers might have "Running Away From Trouble" and "Hiding Questionable Cargo".

    You can follow this thread on the RisusTalk Mailing List on Yahoogroups.

    Guy
    Last edited by ghoyle1; 03-06-2011 at 12:07 AM. Reason: corrected spelling

  3. #18
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    Ok here's a question. So let's say we have the situation like in DS9. The defiant gets pounded. Her shields go down and the Jem'hadar board. Sisko is down to 2 dice. Is that all he has to use when dealing with the melee?

    If it is, it seems a bitt of a problem using the ship as equipment.
    Duct tape is like The Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

    - Carl Zwanzig


  4. #19
    2 dice in which cliche? Surely he has more than one; most characters have either 3 or 4 cliches, and they can switch around in battle.

    So what do we know about Sisko? He's a veteran of the Battle of Wolf 359; he's a single father whose wife died tragically; he's the Bajoran Emissary to the Prophets; he's a big fan of the extinct sport of baseball; he worked in his father's Cajun restaurant while growing up; he studied to be an engineer at Starfleet Academy, and worked on the Defiant; he was captain of the Starfleet Academy Wrestling team; he faced numerous diplomatic challenges on Bajor and DS9. So, without thinking about this one very much, he probably has something similar to this:

    Commander of Deep Space Nine, raising his son in a galactic hotspot (4)
    Accomplished Starfleet Engineer and ship designer (3)
    Pragmatic Diplomat and Tactician (4)
    Devoted to home-cooked Cajun cooking and old-fashioned Baseball (1)

    That's 12 dice, giving him the benefit of an extra die each for Hooks (Reluctant Emissary to the Bajoran Prophets) and Tales (his backstory and what was revealed in the episodes). He would probably have earned some extra dice, other cliches, Lucky Shots and Questing Dice, but this will serve as an example.

    If Sisko was using his Pragmatic tactician cliche when he was reduced to two dice, he could easily switch to any of the others to fight the Jem Hadar. He's an ex-Captain of the Starfleet Academy Wrestling Team, but you don't have to shoehorn everything into the cliches; he's also had whatever hand-to-hand and firearm training Starfleet gives its personnel, so those skills are easy to justify. If the Jem Hadar are trying to capture the Defiant, he has his engineer cliche to sabotage the ship's systems, turn the gravity against them, void the atmosphere, transport them off the ship, etc. As a last resort, he can grab a pipe and whack one of the invaders using his Baseball Fan cliche.

    Does that make sense? Some of the cliches need some work, but I hope this demonstrates a little of Risus' flexibility.

    Guy

  5. #20
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    Hmm.....I figured he'd have to switch cliches. I don't know if I care for that. I understand it's how the rules work, but that's in conjunction with ship as equipment. And it could be my narrow framework, but If I'm "Starfleet Captain 4", I think I should be able to use it for space combat (tactics) but also in the same combat if I get boarded and have to go to hand to hand. because in my mind the cliches should be able to encompass both aspects at the same time.

    Now I don't know if this thinking is just a product of my 20 years of gaming one way, and where Risus is thinking outside the box to a certain aspect. I am enjoying the conversation as I really like Risus.
    Duct tape is like The Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

    - Carl Zwanzig


  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by IceGiant View Post
    Hmm.....I figured he'd have to switch cliches. I don't know if I care for that. I understand it's how the rules work, but that's in conjunction with ship as equipment. And it could be my narrow framework, but If I'm "Starfleet Captain 4", I think I should be able to use it for space combat (tactics) but also in the same combat if I get boarded and have to go to hand to hand. because in my mind the cliches should be able to encompass both aspects at the same time.

    Now I don't know if this thinking is just a product of my 20 years of gaming one way, and where Risus is thinking outside the box to a certain aspect. I am enjoying the conversation as I really like Risus.
    Risus is definitely an "out of the box" kinda game. Cliches can have a number of "tools of the trade", depending on what you're trying to do with them. If your trying to fly a starship, or face off with a Klingon battlecruiser, then yeah, you need a Starship. If you're on a landing party and being ambushed by disruptor-wuelding Klingons, the appropriate Tool would probably be a phaser. If you're duking it out on the rim of an active volcano, you wouldn't need any Tools. All of these could use the same Starship Captain (4) cliche. (If the captain is a Sexy Starship Captain, you might need an entirely different Tool...)

    BTW, the crew of a Starship (besides the PC crew) is also considered a particular type of Tool of the Trade, called "yes men". These are defined (in the Companion) as Tools of the Trade who move about with a semblance of free will... but it's only a semblance. A Tool is a Tool, after all. The Risus Companion has a really good section on what can be done with Tools of the Trade.

    Maybe you're still thinking that "cliche" = "character class"? Character classes are pretty limited in what they can do, though less so than they used to be in the days I played D&D. The article "Anatomy of a Cliche" at UncleBear's website will demonstrate the true and awesome power of the deceptively minescule Cliche.

    Hope this helps,

    Guy

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by IceGiant View Post
    Hmm.....I figured he'd have to switch cliches. I don't know if I care for that. I understand it's how the rules work, but that's in conjunction with ship as equipment. And it could be my narrow framework, but If I'm "Starfleet Captain 4", I think I should be able to use it for space combat (tactics) but also in the same combat if I get boarded and have to go to hand to hand. because in my mind the cliches should be able to encompass both aspects at the same time.
    .
    You would totally be able to use "Starship Captain 4" for doing both, as well as a lot of other things. Cliches are very flexible. If he was down to 2 dice, as you were saying, he might want to be ready to switch to another cliche to be more effective, but he wouldn't be forced to. If he was down to 1 dice, he'd DEFINITELY want to switch to another dice, because he's in danger of losing if he fails that roll.

    Is this helpful?

  8. #23
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    I definitely like the idea of using cliches. I feel like that solves a lot of problems with the dX situation. I feel that I might block off the number of cliches a ship can have. It's fine for characters to switch, but ships might be a mess.
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  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Goth View Post
    I definitely like the idea of using cliches. I feel like that solves a lot of problems with the dX situation. I feel that I might block off the number of cliches a ship can have. It's fine for characters to switch, but ships might be a mess.
    I'd suggest limiting it to about three or four possible categories, like "Combat," "Speed," "Sensors," "Special Tech" or whatever.
    Portfolio | Blog Currently Running: Call of Cthulhu, Star Trek GUMSHOE Currently Playing: DramaSystem, Swords & Wizardry

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King View Post
    I'd suggest limiting it to about three or four possible categories, like "Combat," "Speed," "Sensors," "Special Tech" or whatever.
    Where does that stop, though? You might just as easily name "Shields", "Communications", "Damage Control', etc. Then you have to figure out how many dice each class of ship can have, and then it all becomes a bunch of stats, and you might as well be playing another game. (How many dice would you assign per ship/ The same as player characters?)

    If you do want to have stats, and you want to limit the number of them, why not just have three: Command, Engineering, and Sciences? That fits the source material, and the categories are broad enough that they act more like regular cliches.

    If I was building ships as characters, though, I'd want cliches in the same vein as character cliches. For example:

    Sleek, Cutting-Edge Explorer
    Multi-function Heavy Cruiser
    Swift and Deadly Destroyer
    Slow And Steady Freighter
    Pride of the Fleet
    Stealthy Raider
    First of Her Class
    Pocket Starship
    Experimental Prototype
    Untried Design
    Battle-Scarred Veteran
    Kitbashed Monstrosity
    Aging Cargo Hauler
    Rough-and-Ready Troop Transport
    Astrophysical Research Vessel
    Single-seat scout vessel
    Civilian Medical Transport
    Planetary Survey Ship
    Powerful and Trustworthy Ship
    Austere Yet Capable Starship
    Tried And True Battlewagon

    Since each character/vessel would probably have 3-4 cliches, more variety is probably needed.

    Ships could be characters if they had their own Toools of the Trade ("Yes Men", i.e. crew), but I'm still not happy with how many dice (and how Funky they are) to distribute. There's no wrong way to play, but this isn't the way I'd prefer to play.

    Guy
    Last edited by ghoyle1; 03-07-2011 at 11:51 PM.

  11. #26
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    I want something in the middle here. I don't want to deal with any cliche's for ships at all to be honest. For me I'm trying to simplify things as much as possible while still giving me as the gm something to work with mechanically. I understand that my original idea is putting a second layer in between the players and their opponents but I havn't come up witha satisfactory idea yet. I do like the idea of ships as tools, but I need a little more to work with without adding the extra cliche's to ships. Most definately a work in progress.

    Guy: I believe I understand the broadness of cliche's, I was just hoping to reuse starship captain at it's full value in the same combat for the 2 seperate situations/actions. I know it would require slightly more book keeoing, but I'm thinking of the cliche's "refreshing" for a new instance, but a seperate application. In this case it would look like this.

    Sisko: Starfleet Captain 4

    The defiant is attacked by 3 Dominion attack ships. They are fighting as a grunt squad so they are: Vicious Jem'Hadar 5

    In the course of the fight Sisko is reduced to Starfleet Captain 2 due to being outmanuevered by the fighters. They then board the Defiant. In this situation I would say that Sisko refresh's to his full 4 (to represent his hand to hand and hand phaser training) while engaged in melee while on the defiant. He would then keep track of his dice seperately for this aspect of his cliche. When dealing with the defiant fighting the attack ships he would still be a 2 (straship tactics) from before. I hope this clears up how I'm looking at using a cliche?

    Does this make sense or am I abusing the cliche system?
    Last edited by IceGiant; 03-08-2011 at 12:07 PM.
    Duct tape is like The Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

    - Carl Zwanzig


  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by IceGiant View Post
    I might keep my ship dice system but for my use. For relative scale and then have every 2 dice players lose translate into 1 die lost from thie ship. The ship wouldn't be affected until the second die is lost.

    ie..

    -Kirk loses a die
    -Sulu loses a die

    -refit enterprise drops form 5 dice to 4 dice.

    Would there be a point in trying to reflect repairs while in combat? I wonder how to handle that. Engineer makes a enginerring roll versus target number and ship gets back a die?

    Out of combat is easy as you just roleplay it.
    Getting back a die in combat can have some pretty significant effects (like dragging it out a lot longer). Remember, when you lose a die in Risus, you are not necessarily taking damage; you are losing some of your advantage.

    In most starship combat situations that are not simply matching a cliche vs a target number, the bridge crew will be forming a team; it gives everybody a chance to participate. Remember that the team leader (the captain, who presumably has the highest relevant cliche), will be doing all the rolls, and the PCs will be contributing whatever 6s they roll. So the Klingons attack; they beat the Enterprise crew's team roll, and Kirk loses a d6 (the RisusMaster says that the starboard shield buckles). Then the Enterprise attacks; if they beat the Klingon's team roll, the Klingon captain loses a d6 (actually, it's probably easier to treat the klingon ship as another character). Say that Scotty rolled a 6; the player might claim he was patching up the shields.

    In my view, whenever the players team up, they're playing both their characters and the ship. That's why I don't think it's necessary to have separate stats for the ship, because you've already got 'em. A ship's effectiveness in battle depends far more upon the skills of its crew than its armaments.

    Guy

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by IceGiant View Post
    I want something in the middle here. I don't want to deal with any cliche's for ships at all to be honest. For me I'm trying to simplify things as much as possible while still giving me as the gm something to work with mechanically. I understand that my original idea is putting a second layer in between the players and their opponents but I havn't come up witha satisfactory idea yet. I do like the idea of ships as tools, but I need a little more to work with without adding the extra cliche's to ships. Most definately a work in progress.

    Guy: I believe I understand the broadness of cliche's, I was just hoping to reuse starship captain at it's full value in the same combat for the 2 seperate situations/actions. I know it would require slightly more book keeoing, but I'm thinking of the cliche's "refreshing" for a new instance, but a seperate application. In this case it would look like this.

    Sisko: Starfleet Captain 4

    The defiant is attacked by 3 Dominion attack ships. They are fighting as a grunt squad so they are: Vicious Jem'Hadar 5

    In the course of the fight Sisko is reduced to Starfleet Captain 2 due to being outmanuevered by the fighters. They then board the Defiant. In this situation I would say that Sisko refresh's to his full 4 (to represent his hand to hand and hand phaser training) while engaged in melee while on the defiant. He would then keep track of his dice seperately for this aspect of his cliche. When dealing with the defiant fighting the attack ships he would still be a 2 (straship tactics) from before. I hope this clears up how I'm looking at using a cliche?

    Does this make sense or am I abusing the cliche system?
    I think that's more complex than necessary. I think that, during this battle, when his Staship Captain 4 is reduced to a 2, it should still be a 2 when the JemHadar beam aboard. Any of his other Starfleet-related cliches will give him hand-to-hand and phaser-fighting skills, and he may have others that would do the same. And he's not limited to using combat skills to fight them, either; even his "son of a cajun chef" roll can be pressed into service as an inappropriate cliche (heck, maybe he can lure them down to the galley and replicate a batch of boiling hot gumbo to throw in their faces!). As I noted, his expertise with starship design lets him know the ins and outs of the Defiant, so he can lead them into places where he can trap them, or blow up an EPS conduit, or put up a security field, or crank up the gravity in the room they're stuck in. He's not dependant upon his melee skills to defeat the Jemhadar.

    Remember, losing a dice in a Cliche is not like losing hit points; it's more like losing an advantage.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by IceGiant View Post
    Hmm.....I figured he'd have to switch cliches. I don't know if I care for that. I understand it's how the rules work, but that's in conjunction with ship as equipment. And it could be my narrow framework, but If I'm "Starfleet Captain 4", I think I should be able to use it for space combat (tactics) but also in the same combat if I get boarded and have to go to hand to hand. because in my mind the cliches should be able to encompass both aspects at the same time.
    I had an "Aha" moment a little while ago. I think I understand what you're getting at now; ket me know if I'm wrong.

    So Sisko loses 2 of his "Starship Captain" dice in a dogfight with the JemHadar. Some JemHadar soldiers board the Defiant and start a melee with him. I think your question is, "Has the old dogfight stopped and a new type begun?", with the implication that all cliches are restored to full value when the new fight begins?

    If you think about it, this isn't too far off from the situation where pirates swarm aboard a damaged galleon and start attacking with swords instead of cannons. It's not unlike the situation in the first Star Wars movie (which I REFUSE to call "A New Hope"...) where stormtroopers stop Princess Leia's ship and start a firefight through the corridors. The first question is, does the first fight stop when the good guys' ship is boarded? The second question is, do they get to recover the dice that they lost in the first combat?

    IMO, it's just a continuation of the same attack. The first fight did not end with the defeat of the Defiantl Sisko still had a couple of dice left, so the victory was incomplete. The Jem Hadar have probably just switched from their Starship Combat cliche to their Boarding Party cliche. I can't see how Sisko would have had an opportunity to recover, since he;s just gone from fighting ship-to-ship to fighting hand-to-hand, more or less. He's definitely at a disadvantage vis a vis the JemHadar. Time to switch tactics -- err, cliches!

    You also asked about recovering dice in battle. This usually doesn't happen in Risus team combat. What happens is that the team leader makes his roll, and the other team members contribute any 6s they roll. If O'Brien is trying to repair the warp drive so they can escape, he has to be able to contibute enough 6s to allow Team Sisko to beat the JH roll, The 6s he rolled don't raise the level of the cliche, they are just a temporary bonus.

    I ope I haven't muddled up the situation even more. Let me know if you have any questions,

    Guy

  15. #30
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    I think your "aha" sparked my own. For some reason I was running under the impression that when the jem'hadar bean over they are at their full 5 dice. Not at whatever dice they were at during the initial space battle. So I was thinking that Sisko was at a disadvantage. I now realize that they both are using their dice pools at the levels they are at when the boarding action happens. Not sure why I thought they wouldn't be reduces too. Probably just my non familiarity with Risus.
    Duct tape is like The Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

    - Carl Zwanzig


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