Augments in Starfleet. Discussion point.

[JALU3]

As a story element, an Augment trying to serve in SF, or stay in SF if he was discovered, would be a great allegory to the current state of GLBT persons in our American military.

Lets not get off track. One's sexual preference is different from whether someone is genetically altered in order to be better at certain abilities whether physical or mental. Now if this was a discussion of genetic alteration in order to eliminate homosexuality, if there is ever discovered a "homosexual gene", this would be relevant, but as that is not the case and there is no "homosexual gene" then it is not.

It is entirely possible that there are prejudices that Federation members, and Starfleet have, that they do not see as prejudices as it is the common thinking of that group. For instance look at how some Starfleeters looked down upon the Bajoran faith or how capitalism/the great material continuum is looked down upon as something barbaric or backwards. It's easy for them to not see themselves as prejudice when everyone around them hold the same viewpoint.

Look at Janway and her intollerence towards other points of view that didn't agree with her dogma, as pointed out by SFDebris, or at least that is one way ot view her. Of course she is one but many captains, and later a flag officer, and hers may not necessarily be the majority attitude or opinion held.

NOTE. Interestingly your Angosian NPC and some of the background I did in the Law ENforcement book was what sparked all this thinking...

You're welcome.

Frankly, the Trill and Vulcans are already better-endowed than humans, but they aren't seen as naturally better suited to controlling those with shorter lifespans and less experience.

Makes one wonder why long-lived species do not have a higher percentage within the upper echelons of StarFleet and other Federation organizations. It is possible that Vulcans may transfer to, or choose to take their commission, to a successor organization of the Vulcan High Command. This may also explain why the U.S.S. T'Kumbra was one of a handful of all Vulcan crewed vessels, but of course this is just speculation.

Makes one wonder about other successor organizations, as it is mentioned in non-canon works that the UK Royal Navy existed into the 22nd century and the President of the United States toured San Francisco in the aftermath of the Breen attack in 2375. Would some choose to carry dual commissions, or choose to serve in other services such as the Federation Naval Patrol?
Now I am going off topic.

Now it has been clearly shown that genetic alteration is allowed to a point, but to what point? One clear thread that I have seen develop is that if the alteration gives an alteration above "normal" or provide a distinct benifit beyond what is normally possible ... but what if the "normal" for that species or that planet is significantly greater than that of another species or planet's populace. As has been discussed before a genetically managed planet is treated differently from a sub-group of a planetary population where genetic alteration or management is not the norm.

[Thakowsaizmu]

Bashir's father was sent to prison for having him resequenced and Bashir was very nearly thrown out of Starfleet... Your point?

My point is that he was an augment. And clearly was still in Star Fleet. And 'very nearly' is a nice way of saying he wasn't.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Makes one wonder why long-lived species do not have a higher percentage within the upper echelons of StarFleet and other Federation organizations.

Because the upper echelons are boring and concerned primarily with administrative duties? It's the Federation, man. The Council isn't the fast-track to wealth and power that the U.S Congress is; if nothing else, the Federation would have strong regulatory bodies in place to prevent unwarranted accumulation of influence for personal gain.

Now it has been clearly shown that genetic alteration is allowed to a point, but to what point?

The minute you starting thinking that, because of said alterations, you're 'above' anyone, or 'competing' with them.

[Owen E Oulton]

My point is that he was an augment. And clearly was still in Star Fleet. And 'very nearly' is a nice way of saying he wasn't.

It was established in the episode that he received special dispensation, as mentioned in the original post, which you didn't read carefully enough...

[Dan Gurden]

Now it has been clearly shown that genetic alteration is allowed to a point, but to what point? .

The minute you starting thinking that, because of said alterations, you're 'above' anyone, or 'competing' with them.

OK, and going back to one of the original ideas... Former Borgs as augment equivalents. I have lost count of the number of times that Seven of Nine announced that thanks to her borg implants she was better than the rest of the Starfleet crew, or that the Borg's search of perfection was admirable...

While it was clear that she no longer wanted to be re-assimilated, she no longer had the 'fear' of it that Picard clearly has...

As an interesting aside, my current game is set in the current Typhon Pact novels. This follows the last Borg assault which was finally stopped by an advanced alien race. The standard story has the Borg returned to a peacful state and absorbed into the origin culture, but I have altered that slightly to add that when this parent race released the collective, they also released some drones (the more recent assimilations) back into their civilisations. This means that there are now a fair number of former Borg, some returned completely to human state, others are like Seven and retain an element of Borg physiolgy... A lot of whom were originally Starfleet officers.

Which was why I suddenlt started wondering if/why the non-augment ruling applied to them too (despite the on screen evidence clearly staing 'no'.)

[Aldaron]

I'm wondering if there could be some compromise in the "modern" Starfleet (perhaps the prejudices alluded to with regard to Bashir were a hold-over from an earlier time? We still have archaic laws on the books that eventually get struck down by the courts...maybe something similar is in play?)

If that's the case, then perhaps there could be a ruling of some kind that a (for example) Augment with an enhanced intellect could go through the Academy and join Starfleet, but they would be barred from any kind of competition involving their enhancements? Perhaps a better example would be a physical augmentation such as enhanced stamina/metabolism...said Augment could become a SF officer, but wouldn't be allowed to compete in the Academy marathon.

Just tossin' ideas out, here.

Of course, this brings up the problem with a multi-species SF Academy, which includes Vulcans (just as one example) that are listed as being stronger than humans, and with greater stamina. One wonders how anyone but a Vulcan wins the marathon every year...

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I highly doubt that the ex-Borg are universally more competent than Ensign Bob. Plenty of them are probably going to die from lack of implant maintenance. The Federation is unlikely to become the Headtubeocracy a la 40K.

Anyway, Seven's patronizing attitude is not exactly an objective account. One could make a case that, having been physically assaulted as a child and subjected to years upon years of non-consensual surgery, she's suffering from a severe case of Stockholm's syndrome. By identifying with her captors she attempts to avoid admitting to the extreme victimization she experienced and the helplessness that goes along with it.

[Brian K]

I guess it would be interesting to see what was considered a normal human in TNG. I would suspect that there is a huge amount of genetic work that occurs everyday, but that it is not even talked about.

In Star Trek IV, didn't McCoy give some patient in the 20th Century hospital some pills, and there was a comment later on about her kidney growing back?

What we would see as genetic augmentation, would probably be viewed as 'better living' by someone in the 24th century. I think Picard talks about how they live longer, better etc... perhaps in the first season 'Neutral Zone"...not sure.

Maybe the augmentation thing, is a treaty agreement with the Klingons after the experiences they had in Enterprise.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

The retroviral that turned into Barclay's Protomorphosis Disease would be considered 'genetic engineering' today, yeah... and that started as a routine medical treatment.

That brings me to another thought. What if the 'augmentation' proceedures are actually specific, the kind of processes that would be patentable today? Instead of it being a broad prohibition against 'anything that makes you "better,"' the technology and retroviral code used to do the enhancements might be prohibited due to high risk of... well, crazy (cf. Khan, cf. Jack). That means that the Gagarin IV lab might have skirted the law by developing their own alterations—which likely got slammed with legal prohibitions because of the same issues.

The Gagarin IV disease also brings up another point. Genetically engineered humans are still animals, and like any animal introducing new ones into an environment will have a potentially destabilizing effect on the ecosystem. The anti-augmentation laws might extend into the realm of ecological protection legislation.

This thread would make great fodder for a JAG campaign.

[Tricky]

This thread would make great fodder for a JAG campaign.

Well, you saw above my idea for that: A person serving in SF, who has been hiding their true nature from everyone (not sure how you hide your super-DNA from sickbay though), especially whomever looks out for Augments. At some point, their true nature comes out, and they must (like Bashir did) fight to keep their place in the service. Or from getting sent to some Stockade colony on the Frontier. Or worse.
That is what i meant earlier; that they would be "living a lie" just to serve, not anything about a "homosexual gene". Heck, Bashir's situation is pretty much what HAS HAPPENED to homosexual service persons in the American Military in the past; they got "found out" they were discharged.

But this is not a place for a socio-political debate. And please mods don't take any of my comments to be so. Thanks.

[JALU3]

At what point is genetically altered food comparable to genetically altered sentient individuals?
At what point is an individuals sexual preference have anything to do with whether someone is who has had genetic alterations is able to serve in a uniformed service or not?
I think we are getting into social-political realm here and it should be stopped here.

Back on topic. It could be argued, and rightfully so, that if an individual who is looking to apply to join an all volunteer uniform force, that since the force is voluntary said force (or authority over that force) could make any restriction that it so chooses to make as determined by itself, at that time, to be in the best interest of that force. Some forces will decide (as with Starfleet) that no augments are allowed to serve for reason X Y & Z. Other forces will decide (as on Angosia) that in order to be in the force one may be subject to alteration/augmentation for reason A B & C. Not all forces (or authorities over those forces) will have the same policies. As Picard stated when leaving Angosia, what occurs between the internal force and its government is an internal matter.

Since I see the Federation being a federal system, this allows diverse types of planets to be member worlds. Whether they are those with "genetic managed" populations, worlds that disallow any genetic alteration, and those in between those two extremes. We see this culturally where there is a diversity amongst the member worlds such as where symbiots are allowed to dominate one culture and yet another culture exist in some hive mind limited to binary thought. Therefore, it is possible that a society's cultural norms may play a role into the policies that effect individuals of that species in Starfleet. For instance, only Deltans had to have an oath of celibecy on record, while individuals of other species did not (that we are aware of).

[C5]

Reading this discussion, I suddenly got the (probably crazy) idea that, basically, the ban on augmentation by the Federation could be seen as a sort of reverse Prime Directive.
Basically, the ban goal would be trying to prevent a slippery slope which would lead to mass production of Augments, compared to which the base Federation citizens would be inferior, leading to a possible disruption of the whole Federation society.
Genetic tampering would still be allowed, but on a case by case basis, and under no circumstances to make some individual better than the others.

Like everything involving the Prime Directive, this can of course be debated...
Just my two eurocents anyway.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

No, actually, I think you've hit the nail on the head, C5. If 'augmentation' actually does lead to access to new, unknown technology (which, following McLuhan, it would be) inside your own head, then there's no way that we can trust that someone who hasn't developed that technology themselves (i.e. gotten to the same level of neural functioning as an 'augment') will use it responsibly.

The Prime Directive is pretty simple, really: If you don't know how it works, and can't be trusted to use it while controlling the consequences.

The implication that the 'augmentation' problems emerged at the same time as nuclear war cinches it.