West Virgina/Puerto Rico Statehood?

[redwood973]

O.K., this is something I have believed since my freshman year of high school (1988/89). I am very curious about everyones thoughts on this: Yeah/Nay/Who Cares. All comments welcomed!

The State of West Virgina was admited to the Union in 1863; when the western most counties of Virgina (opposed to the civil war) left Virgina.

Now I have a problems with this: if the United States concidered the south still part of the union (which they did, or there would have been no civil war); Article 4, Section 3(1) of the U.S constitution reads: "New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other State. . ." Now if the U.S did not recognize the Confederate States of America, then clearly the State of West Virgina is a direct violation of our Constitution.

We can't justify the admission of West Virgina because Virgina was not part of the Union at the time. That would be de facto admissson to the soverignty of the Confederate States of America; in which case we invaded and occupied a legitamte foreign nation. (If we did it, why can't Iraq?)

Now having an odd number of States causes some unusual problem for a federation such as yours so, the most logical member for statehood is. . .Puerto Rico. They already enjoy all the benifits of U.S citizenship, why not make them liable to the rest of what citizenship means.

So. . .down with West Virgina! Welcome Puerto Rico, the 50th U.S state! (If we can't get rid of West Virgina. . .I have no problem with tossing out a little island we have in the middle of the Pacific.)

[Roxby]

oh boy..

where's Sheliak Bob when you need him???

[Publius]

West Virginia, the 35th state was inducted on June 20th 1863. Like the 23rd state inducted into the Union, namely the state of Maine (admitted March 15th 1820), it actually 'belonged' to another state (in Maine's case this was Massachusetts) prior.

Art IV Section 3 clause 1 does indeed state that the National government and the other states must respect the territory of the states, however you didn't quote far enough:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">United States Constitution of 1789 Article IV, Section 3 Clause 1: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.</font>

This last bit is very important. If the state, as well as Congress, agree to the severance of a part of any state it may indeed be inducted as a state of the Union so long as it suits all of the minimal requirements laid down by the Constitution and Congress (as Congress can indeed place requirements on states when they vie for statehood -- ask Utah).

In the case of West Virginia, Congress had the permission of the representatives of that state. Sort of.

Prior to 1863, Congress and the President had already recognized the "restored" government of Virginia as the legitimate government of that state. This was handy because the "Restored" Virginia government happened to be made up of the citizens (more or less) of pro-Union western Virginia rather than those waging war against them. The "Restored" government gave a blessing (essentially to itself) to seek statehood and a Constitution was drafted. This document was accepted by Congress after a few caveats were adhered to and the citizens of the 'restored" government (you got it -- west Virginians all) voted popularly to ratify. There had actually been a rather long lived gulf between the two sides of the state for some time.

As a result west Virginia became West Virginia, satisfying the technical Constitutional requirements (in a somewhat underhanded manner, but who wants to have their history sanitized?).

Puerto Rico is a whole different story . They have a nice deal going and have decided to keep it up quite a few times so far. I doubt they'll go for it just yet unless the deal gets worse and forces them to make a commitment one way or the other.

John D. Lees
Mad Political Scientist

[Sheliak Bob]

I'm on it Roxster!

Now then. All confused 'bout our history, is that it?
The separation of the West Virginia counties from the rest of the state of Virginia came about as a result of an act of insurrection by the legitamite government of Virginia. Those counties which did not wish to follow into secession separated themselves from the central authority of the state of Virginia. The Union supported this separation for purely tactical reasons, admittedly. However, the situation at the end of the war resulted in the counties of West Virginia being separated from the mother state in part as reparations for the insurrection and in part as reward for the loyalty of the citizens of those counties. The partition of the state was viewed as an internal matter. The Federal government did not act under its own authority to separate the western counties. The whole issue was treated as an internal administrative issue. The Constitution prevents the Federal government from partitioning states, but says NOTHING about the inhabitants of the states themselves reapportioning their territories. The Federal Government merely acknowledged and supported what was viewed as a local democratic initiative. (That Virginia did not approve was irrelevant. They's Traitors, after all. AND, they lost the war. Important point that!)
So, there you have it! No Constitutional crisis, merely a matter of unusually complicated local politics. Admittedly, it can be argued that the government of the easter counties of Virginia invalidated itself through an act of Treason and therefore the proper and legal government of the unified state SHOULD have been transferred to the government of the loyal western counties. In that scenario, the western counties would have taken over administration of the eastern portion of the state after the war. We were just too charitable to rub our cousins' noses in the fact that they got themselves whooped.
NOW! If there is support for a retroactive Mountaineer Occupation of the "Eastern Territories", I'll vote for it! You betcha!
Otherwise, we'll just have to live with our separate jurisdictions.

We'll get around to annexing Puerto Rico properly once those feisty Boriquas decide that they WANT to be a State. Right now, they keep voting for that fence-straddling commonwealth thingie. I say we let Guam in while the Puerto Ricans debate the relative merits of independence vs. Statehood. Either that or annex the Maritime Provinces while no on is looking...

[Sheliak Bob]

Hmm. In retrospect.
"What Pub' said!"
Yeah. That'll do 'er.

[JALU3]

I was thinking once . . . what if after WWII the US offered statehood to all sections of the Pacific Rim that they were in control of (Vietnam, Japan, Philippines, what is now the Micronesian Federation, etc.). Who'd accept? How would this effect history?

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"See Everything; overlook a great deal; correct a little." -Pope John XXIII

[Dan Stack]

Regarding statehood of Pacific Rim nations... Man, I bet the U.S.S.R. would have had a fit over that one.

Puerto Rico is a territory won during the Spanish-American War. It is not a state, nor an independent entity. It can change it's current status if it so chooses. One of the barriers to Puerto Rico choosing to become a state is that of language. While the United States has no official language, for all intents and purposes, English is the language of the United States. That creates an issue for Puerto Rico where Spanish is predominant.

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U.S.S. Icarus

[JALU3]

Note, officially the United States has NO OFFICIAL NATIONAL LANGUAGE. However, I will admit that English is the predominant language, and is the one used through out the United States and her territories. But interesting side note, it is law that the official language here in California is English, even though everything MUST be printed in spanish also, due to the large spanish speaking population. Actually, come to think about it when I recieve my phone bills from Pacific Bell information is written on the outside of the envelop in 6 different languages (english, spanish, chinese, japanese, viet, & tagalog).

As far as the response to my original posting about Pacific Rim US. Yes, Russia would have a field day after the war, but not that they could do anything, we had the superior naval and land forces in the region. And further more we were the only ones at the time, and for several years after the fact, who had the nuke. (note the fact that during the Berlin Airlift, the US moved nuke capable bombers to the UK during the incident to threaten Russia) Therefore, all the Russians could do is whine and B1tch.

I would have done it, however, I would also state that those nations did not HAVE to accept the offer. Sure @ the beginning we would have to pump tons of $$$$ into asia to modernize it to our standards, and of course rebuild its infastructure and economies. But shoot . . . we did it to Europe, why not asia?

(My friend would chim in (a duel Citizen Japanese/American Chilipino (Chinese, Filipino) (Actually I just refer to him normally as japanese cause he has been raised that way and believes in Nippon whole heartedly)) and say cause no white man would've helped a chink, gook, flip, or jap back then)

<----------- Filipino Myself
(sorry if I offend anyone)

I personnally like the idea, but doubt that it would've happened, or that any nation or region, besides maybe the Philippines, Hawaii, & Guam, would've accepted the offer of Statehood. Rather they would've heard of the sweet deal that Puerto Rico has with that entire commonwealth bit (which the Philippines was @ the time before and shortly before her independence (now there's a funny story)), and request that they get that status.

Lucky PR, all the benifits of statehood (minus representation in Congress (both commonwealths have a nonvoting member in the H.R. that can only vote in committe)), but don't have to pay National Income Tax. This includes, but are not limited to, federal emergence relief funds, federal military support, and funding for a countless number of programs.

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"See Everything; overlook a great deal; correct a little." -Pope John XXIII

[qerlin]

Puerto Rico...they should either become a state & pay taxes on their services, or go their own way and tough s**t to them.

Can you just image the trouble the US would be having now if the Phillipines were a state? Betwen the Morro and Al Saif insurrectionists, massive corruption, etc...? What a hastle that would be.

[Eric R.]

In the case of the Phillipines the problem would have been that we had promised her independence in 1946 way back in the early 30's and even though we should have said wait and let us get you back on your feet we decided we had too many times before gone back on our word to them. Just the same they got Independence and aid for rebuilding and we got Subec and a few other bases up to the end of the Cold War. Then they Kicked us out. thats gratitude for you. Now that their economy has tanked thery want us back but hey both Singapore and possiably Cam Ran bay are calling us too.

As to Mirconesia, they were largely US teritory right up too 1986 when they became independant in spits and spurts. As to Veitnam we did not occupy that region in 45 the Chinese and British did and the French would have been real pissed if we had offered them statehood.

[Cochrane]

What about American Samoa? Anyone know what they would think of becoming a state?

I think it would be cool if Mexico, Central, and South America decided to unify with the United States. I wouldn't advocate conquering them, if they join it's their decision.

Cuba, on the other hand, (heh heh) Yeah, we should conquer them and make them the 51st state.

Canada, as I've learned from these boards, would not want to unify with us.

But what would really tickle me would be if Norway decided to join! Maybe Greenland.

I myself am nowhere near fluent in Spanish, but I would not mind learning it if I were given more incentive. I think it would be a good idea to have English and Spanish as official languages. Far too many of us Americans think one language is enough.

[AslanC]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sheliak Bob:
Either that or annex the Maritime Provinces while no on is looking...</font>

I've got my bloodshot Cankucklehead eyes on you Bob...keep yer hands off of Prince Edward Island.


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Aslan Collas
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Star Trek:Strange New Worlds;
http://www.geocities.com/aslan_collas/
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Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.

[AslanC]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cochrane:
Canada, as I've learned from these boards, would not want to unify with us.</font>

I think if you were to get your education levels and social reforms in shape we would consider it more, oh and you have to get rid of all those guns...they scare us

Just continue to think of us as your little backyard and we will continue to simply go along with missile shield policies and free-trade agreements and hope to God you never get drunk and actually notice us!


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Aslan Collas
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Star Trek:Strange New Worlds;
http://www.geocities.com/aslan_collas/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.

[Dan Stack]

The time for our attack has come... Montreal for breakfast, Quebec for dinner.

(Sorry, been reading Turtledove's Great War seires...(

[Dave Biggins]

I agree that Puerto Rico should either become a state or go their own way. For the sake of stability, however, I would like to see a gradual trip to independence where the Federal government hands things off to the new nation slowly to avoid complications.

The US, for now, shouldn't merge with any other countries or unions. Although the US and Canada share a great deal culturally, integrating our economies would be a nightmare. Americans would balk at the amount of government while the Canadians would balk at the lack there of. The next thing you know there would be knife fights in the teacher's lounge over whether a word is spelled with an "s" or a "z". Cats sleeping with dogs...oy, it would be a mess.