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Thread: Toughness

  1. #16
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    I think you and I have a completely different view concerning phasers and shields, will have to agree to disagree.

    That being said in the games I played we always ignored the cinematic effect and went with the numbers as we saw it as fair and set a level playing field. Cinematic effects always seemed too arbitrary for our liking and as I pointed out left little room character survival. We also tried to bring Trek more in line with other RPG's (mainly BattleLords of the 23rd Century) as other systems that dealt with energy weapon types in more depth. Why we chose BattleLords of the 23rd Century is because they had quantified many types of weapons ranging from ballistic to energy based weaponry, as well having a standardized force field (they called them flux shielding) system.

    not discrete different features like Judge Dredd's Lawgiver ammunition options.
    light stun, heavy stun, light thermal, heavy thermal, light disruption, heavy disruption, seems to me to have discrete different settings?

    as far as the shields go, no they reduced incoming phaser fire for a point for point basis, so the Haven PDS could allow a character to survive at least 1 hit from a phaser on setting 16, something NO character could do normally.

    That was the problem I had in Trek they downplayed the lethality of phasers for the most part, and exaggerated them at other times. For example the DS-9 episode with the Jem'Hadar up on a cliff face being attacked by Sisko and crew (most of which had Type 3 phaser rifles). In the first engagement I don't think they killed any one despite several of them firing on the ridge. A couple of hits on setting 16 (disintegrating/exploding 600m cubed, so 6mx10mx10m cube of rock into rubble) by a few phaser rifles would have destroyed a vast area of the ridge, the Jem'Hadar and anything else on that ridge..... Borg Personal shields also didn't work like you describe, they were adaptive and eventually made phaser impotent at any setting, once they adapted to the phaser fire, the incoming fire was completely ineffectual.

    I should also add, personal phasers work on the EXACTLY same principles as ship mounted phasers (ship phasers can be set to different levels such as stun, it's just that they rarely are, and are defaulted to maximum effect, as in disintegrate/explode) and should be treated as such, including the way they interact with shields. So a point for point system works perfectly.(though Borg personal shields don't work in this fashion, though it is easy to adapt them to a point for point system) It is also easy to know in a point for point system when a character is disintegrated, when all body points (health or wound levels or what ever) are exceeded in damage, then the character vanishes in a flash of stay atoms and is reduced to a small pile of dust.
    Last edited by WaveMan; 10-29-2015 at 04:52 PM.
    AKA-Dean
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    Wave Man, the term "wave man" is the English translation of 'Ronin' (Japanese word) and literately translates to "wandering person" and in a modern context a WaveMan is one who is socially adrift or a SalaryMan who is between employers.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by WaveMan View Post
    so neither of you use personal shields in your games? The arm shield (deflect upto 30 points of damage and provides situation cover) is straight out of The Players' Handbook (page 109) and allows characters to survive phaser hits somewhat. Then it is easy to extrapolate shield technology from there. Personal armour is similarly easy to integrate (The Hunters that were after Tosk used armour to make phasers less potent for example) and the Hazard Suit (non-canon) is an example of Federation based armour technology.
    I don't give anyone personal forcefields. While I have my own ideas about 'in universe' explanations of why they don't show up, the real reason I wouldn't use them is because this is how it would go:

    GM: Three Cardassians come down the corridor; each is holding a personal forcefield. Their weapons are aimed directly at you.
    Player 1: Okay, I set my phaser to 16 and disintegrate the floor underneath them.
    GM: Okay, they fall into the pit created underneath them.
    Player 1: I set my phaser to 12 and slice up the ceiling bulkheads.
    GM: The Cardassians are crushed to death under falling debris.
    Player 2: I never get to use the neck pinch.

    The point of a Trek game isn't to just throw escalating threats at the players to defeat by rolling high; you're supposed to be handing them mysteries to solve or intractable social disputes. If firepower actually solved problems in Trek, it would just be episode after episode of the Enterprise nuking things from orbit.
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  3. #18
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    then as a GM you would say, Ok you blast the bulk head, breach the hull and you are vented into space..... (if on a ship) , or OK you blast the ceiling and the debris falls on top of the target and the personal shield deflects it away and the target is unharmed....or OK you disintegrate a hole in the floor, the Cardassian's fall in to the perfectly created 'fox hole', now they are protected from further fire, giving the Cardassian's time to lob a photon grenade at you, you are all dead, roll up new characters.....

    While I get what you are saying I still believe that personal shields and armour have a place in any Trek game.
    Last edited by WaveMan; 10-30-2015 at 01:32 AM.
    AKA-Dean
    "I will never make excuses for who I am. It is the way I was born. I am a HUNTER. a BONE COLLECTOR."
    Wave Man, the term "wave man" is the English translation of 'Ronin' (Japanese word) and literately translates to "wandering person" and in a modern context a WaveMan is one who is socially adrift or a SalaryMan who is between employers.

  4. #19
    So how often do your players replicate new weapons before missions?
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  5. #20
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    back in the day when I was playing, every mission...LoL

    My favorite Andorian character always had a type 1 phaser hidden on his person, openly carried at least one type 2 phaser and 2 Chaka (Andorian daggers) where ever he went, plus he always had access to a type 3 as required. He also liked the idea of the TR-116. Shooting through walls was just insane...While he maintained a high level of skill with all types of energy weapons (5/6 at a minimum) and some ballistic weapons (most notably the TR-116) he tried to master the Chaka (getting weapon mastery [+4] and 5/6 plus special weapon style). It is fun to vaporize the occasional target, but honorable melee combat was always far more satisfying.

    Though remember I always participated in OP/power gamy militant style games and Trek was no different. This style worked for me and the players I played with, probably wouldn't work for most though.
    Last edited by WaveMan; 10-30-2015 at 02:58 AM.
    AKA-Dean
    "I will never make excuses for who I am. It is the way I was born. I am a HUNTER. a BONE COLLECTOR."
    Wave Man, the term "wave man" is the English translation of 'Ronin' (Japanese word) and literately translates to "wandering person" and in a modern context a WaveMan is one who is socially adrift or a SalaryMan who is between employers.

  6. #21
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    My characters are more explorer than fighter types. Sure they can defend themselves if needed, but I don't run a game for combat monsters. That's not very Trek, and I like my Trek games to feel like Trek. The last big battle my characters were in was with Klingons. The captain got hit with a disruptor blast and technically died, but they were able to revive him, as one of the other PCs on the scene was an MD. I don't like killing PCs. On the other tentacle, I don't like to play down the deadliness of the weapons. Most of my sessions don't involve a battle at all - I prefer to run adventures where they have to think their way out of a problem. That's why when I recently ran an adventure where the actual solution was to "blow shit up" it took them several attempts to solve the problem by resorting to brute force before they did and succeeded. This of course wouldn't have worked if they weren't used to having to try peaceful solutions first and just always shot things pre-emptively. Tastes vary, but I like the way things run in my game, and my players obviously do as well, since they've been playing in my campaign for nearly 30 years and still keep coming back.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by WaveMan View Post
    back in the day when I was playing, every mission...LoL
    Well, okay, here's the thing: if you're giving their targets little personal shields like in the player's guide, then your players should be thinking, "Oh, well, direct fire doesn't work, so we need to try indirect fire." So the first thing I'd do is have an artillery unit either back on the ship or somewhere else on the planet with a portable transporter unit to transport a stun grenade into range immediately behind them.

    I mean, if you really want to turn Trek into a military combat simulation, phasers become almost irrelevant, since you really want to just tag and transport little chunks of everyone's head away. That'll last a week before everyone goes, "Screw it," and it becomes about robots injecting people with nanotech disassemblers.
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  8. #23
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    as I said above, while my games were definitely very militant there was always a cerebral component to each session, it was Trek after all. If you really look at Trek, especially the last few seasons of DS-9 and most of the movies, there was always a strong militant component to each episode, and our Trek RPG'ing followed that trend. Plus I always played very combat orientated character races, Andorian and Klingon's primarily. I was disappointed as far as that went because I stopped playing before I got to try a Klingon/Vulcan mixed species, I think that character would have been the perfect mix of physical and mental abilities.
    Last edited by WaveMan; 11-01-2015 at 03:51 AM.
    AKA-Dean
    "I will never make excuses for who I am. It is the way I was born. I am a HUNTER. a BONE COLLECTOR."
    Wave Man, the term "wave man" is the English translation of 'Ronin' (Japanese word) and literately translates to "wandering person" and in a modern context a WaveMan is one who is socially adrift or a SalaryMan who is between employers.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King View Post
    , "Screw it," and it becomes about robots injecting people with nanotech disassemblers.

    sounds like the swarm gauntlet I wrote up for my Ultra Soldiers

    http://future.wikia.com/wiki/Ultra_S..._Weapon_System
    AKA-Dean
    "I will never make excuses for who I am. It is the way I was born. I am a HUNTER. a BONE COLLECTOR."
    Wave Man, the term "wave man" is the English translation of 'Ronin' (Japanese word) and literately translates to "wandering person" and in a modern context a WaveMan is one who is socially adrift or a SalaryMan who is between employers.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by WaveMan View Post
    I would also think that after a few recovered Borg Drones SF R&D would backward engineer Borg Personal Shielding for use on Away Team and Security personnel.
    See thats an easy one. The Shield needs to be reliant upon nanites and personal processor implant, along with suitable power source. Borg carry such power source with them, and can of course recharge. reverse engineering might not be easilt portable without the use of some of this equavalent technology...

    Sure there will be those that look upon the scientific or tactical advantages. But in my universe/opinion Starfleet are as adverse to personal borg technology as they are to genetic modification (probably more so as the memory of Wof 359 is still rather fresh.
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  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gurden View Post
    See thats an easy one. The Shield needs to be reliant upon nanites and personal processor implant, along with suitable power source. Borg carry such power source with them, and can of course recharge. reverse engineering might not be easilt portable without the use of some of this equavalent technology...

    Sure there will be those that look upon the scientific or tactical advantages. But in my universe/opinion Starfleet are as adverse to personal borg technology as they are to genetic modification (probably more so as the memory of Wof 359 is still rather fresh.
    So, what, they just closed up the nanite factories in Senegal? Did the Federation switch to an alternative method of working on nucleii during cellular surgery?
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gurden View Post
    See thats an easy one. The Shield needs to be reliant upon nanites and personal processor implant, along with suitable power source. Borg carry such power source with them, and can of course recharge. reverse engineering might not be easilt portable without the use of some of this equavalent technology...

    Sure there will be those that look upon the scientific or tactical advantages. But in my universe/opinion Starfleet are as adverse to personal borg technology as they are to genetic modification (probably more so as the memory of Wof 359 is still rather fresh.
    Rather then building personal shields into people (as in as a cybernetic option) like the Borg I could see SF developing some sort of belt integrating all the technology required for a Borg-like adaptive, regenerative personal shield. I agree most Federation citizens were wary of overt cybernetic devices because of the associations with the Borg, but IMO there are ways around that.


    I was also thinking about this over the week end and doing some research and remembered the episode 'DS-9 Homefront' and found this quote

    "LEYTON: Mister President, we can use the Lakota's transporters and communications system to mobilise every Starfleet officer on Earth in less than twelve hours. We've been preparing for something like this for a long time. We have stockpiles of phaser rifles, personal forcefields, photon grenades, enough to equip an entire army. I can start getting men on the streets immediately.

    JARESH-INYO: What you're asking me to do is declare martial law.

    the reference to 'personal forceshields' is interesting and they were never quantified. So there is definitely canon precedent for the addition of personal forceshields

    I also remember the episode 'fist full of data's' were Worf easily developed a personal shield that allowed him to survive being shot with a revolver, now I realize this isn't the same, though if a Security officer could easily jury-rig a makeshift shield I wonder what a dedicated effort by SF R&D personnel could achieve?
    Last edited by WaveMan; 11-01-2015 at 04:38 PM.
    AKA-Dean
    "I will never make excuses for who I am. It is the way I was born. I am a HUNTER. a BONE COLLECTOR."
    Wave Man, the term "wave man" is the English translation of 'Ronin' (Japanese word) and literately translates to "wandering person" and in a modern context a WaveMan is one who is socially adrift or a SalaryMan who is between employers.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by WaveMan View Post
    Rather then building personal shields into people (as in as a cybernetic option) like the Borg I could see SF developing some sort of belt integrating all the technology required for a Borg-like adaptive, regenerative personal shield.
    500px-Life_support_belt.jpg

    I agree most Federation citizens were wary of overt cybernetic devices because of the associations with the Borg,
    Yeah, like that time Picard ripped out his artificial heart.

    I also remember the episode 'fist full of data's' were Worf easily developed a personal shield that allowed him to survive being shot with a revolver, now I realize this isn't the same, though if a Security officer could easily jury-rig a makeshift shield I wonder what a dedicated effort by SF R&D personnel could achieve?
    Considering they theoretically had a teleporting bullet that we never saw used, or that they could just nuke and pave most planets they encounter, the RoE that prevents them from being deployed on your average away mission must be considered too.

    I'd generally interpret that phrase as reflecting the human-portable forcefields that are projected into gaps rather than surrounding individuals, though.
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  14. #29
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    as far as the Federation aversion to overt cybernetics, it was well documented and mentioned several times, with the Borg association cited as the underlying reason.

    Page 108 The Price of Freedom has a very good side bar about this aversion, I will quote some of it

    "Even before first contact with the Borg Collective was made in 2365, Federation citizens have been increasingly uncomfortable with cybernetic implants of all types. Few people object to the use of cybernetic implants to correct otherwise un-treatable medical conditions, but the deliberate implantation of cybernetic technology into an otherwise healthy individual is regarded with great suspicion by many Federation citizens."

    while researching Federation personal shields I came upon the Life Support Shield System, interesting piece of kit, something every away team would have access to IMHO.
    Last edited by WaveMan; 11-01-2015 at 10:44 PM.
    AKA-Dean
    "I will never make excuses for who I am. It is the way I was born. I am a HUNTER. a BONE COLLECTOR."
    Wave Man, the term "wave man" is the English translation of 'Ronin' (Japanese word) and literately translates to "wandering person" and in a modern context a WaveMan is one who is socially adrift or a SalaryMan who is between employers.

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