NuTrek: The Ashes of Vulcan

[mactavish]

I've looked at this all over the interwebs and haven't found much consensus, so I figured I'd come and ask "those in the know."

In the Star Trek reboot, after the destruction of Vulcan by grief-stricken, anachronistic Romulan miner-turned-terrorist, Nero, NuSpock states that only about 10,000 Vulcans survived, leaving his father's race "an endangered species."

Presumably that means about 10,000 Vulcans that were on the homeworld at the time managed to evacuate, including the members of the High Council that Spock rescued from the Katric Ark (and weren't crushed to death by collapsing statues or earthworks).

Okay, all sarcasm aside, how many Vulcans do you suppose are actually left post-destruction of the homeworld? I cannot believe that there weren't Vulcans assigned to Starfleet vessels (or stations, outposts, or Starfleet Command itself) that were not destroyed by Nero during his initial attack on the fleet at Vulcan. Further, there were certainly Vulcan ambassadors, negotiators, scientists, physicians, and other professionals elsewhere in the galaxy... perhaps not too many, but some. Finally, there are [according to canon] at least a handful of purely Vulcan colonies throughout Federation space (and perhaps beyond) as well as multiracial colonies with at least some Vulcan residents.

Oh, and what about whatever remains of the Vulcan Space Service (or whatever other Vulcan organizations remain post-UFP formation)? I would think there were still some mid- to late-22nd century Vulcan cruisers (as well as other Vulcan ships, both older and newer) still cruising around with primarily [or entirely] Vulcan crews as well.

Moreover, there are other Vulcanoids and proto-Vulcanoids (including the Romulans, Mintakans, Rigelians, any surviving Debrune, etc.) scattered throughout the Alpha and Beta Quadrants as well. Now, granted, it seems unlikely that the remnants of the Vulcan High Council on New Vulcan would start recruiting non-Vulcans (or abducting Mintakans to expand their gene pool), but perhaps "desperate times call for desperate measures." This is also a great scenario for Romulans to infiltrate the new Vulcan society...

So, since I think 10,000 surviving Vulcans c.2258 seems unbelievably low, I was wondering what you all thought. What seems reasonable? 50,000 Vulcans? 250,000 Vulcans? A million? Ten million? With a presumed population of about least 4.9 billion (according to http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Confederacy_of_Vulcan), even 0.01% of the population is 490,000. A population of 10,000 surviving Vulcans is only 0.000204081633% of 4.9 billion.

On a tangent, what do you suppose this does to Vulcan technical knowledge and expertise? I don't imagine all of their scientific and technological achievements disappeared with the destruction of their planet, but certainly the loss of the Vulcan Science Academy would be a huge blow to future Vulcan invention and discovery. That, combined with the loss of [most likely] the bulk of the Vulcan intellectual elite, would certainly limit the influence of Vulcan science and engineering in the "new reality."

So what Vulcan technology remains? Ships? Stations? Outposts?

What remains of the Confederacy of Surak in the NuTrek universe?

mactavish out.

[mactavish]

It's strange, but just as I finished typing the initial post for this thread and submitted it, I got the news popup that Leonard Nimoy had just passed away.

Weird coincidence, I suppose.

mactavish out.

[mactavish]

The seven Ministries of the Vulcan government apparently include State, Defense, Security, Trade, Thought (presumably referring to Education [?]), Science and Health. My assumption is that any new government established after the destruction of their homeworld would necessarily include all of these same ministries.

The leader of the Vulcan government is referred to as First Minister. In 2258, after the loss of their planet (and presumably the bulk of their leadership caste), whom do you suppose would fill that role? Sarek? Old Spock?

The new Vulcan homeworld, New Vulcan, has been mentioned on-screen, in the comics, and in computer games, but its location is unclear. Does anyone know where it is?

I did find the names of a couple [non-canon] Vulcan colonies: Cor Caroli IX, Trilan and Harmony (not a very Vulcan-sounding name!).

These are in addition to the canon locations of P'Jem [a religious/espionage colony] and the Vulcanis lunar colony, where Tuvok was destined to be born (but which I assume was also destroyed by Nero, as it was on Vulcan's moon [but perhaps not]).

The remnants of the Vulcan Space Service would certainly converge at New Vulcan, both for defense of the new seat of Vulcan civilization and to bring what technical, scientific and administrative expertise it possesses to bear for its people.

How long would it take the Vulcans to build a new world from scratch? I presume that the Federation would provide the bulk of the resources and manpower necessary, and that the efforts would be directed by the Vulcans themselves, perhaps in consultation with the elders invested with the katras saved from the Katric Ark (and Old Spock, whose future knowledge and advanced technical expertise could potentially advance Vulcan [and Federation] science by more than a century).

Speaking of Old Spock, exactly how would his knowledge of the "alternate future" affect the Federation in general and the Vulcans in particular? I realize that his knowledge of future events is practically useless in galactopolitical terms, but he would certainly know the locations of presently undiscovered resources and events of astronomical significance. He knows about V'Ger and its impending arrival [in ~13 years] (and the problem Earth will face due to the absence of whales), time travel using "the slingshot maneuver," the Bajoran subjugation by the Cardassian Union (and the subsequent discovery of the Bajoran wormhole), the Dominion, the Borg, the Son'a, and a host of other significant items and events to occur over the next ~130 years.

Or does Old Spock use his genius and future knowledge to intervene in the past, preventing Nero's arrival in the first place, whether by saving Romulus or employing time travel of some sort to contact the Federation prior to 2233, when Nero first arrived from the future. Maybe convincing Starfleet of the early 23rd century to converge at that location, perhaps in cooperation with the Klingon Empire (or perhaps not) and/or other powers, to destroy the Narada immediately upon its arrival (perhaps using tricobalt explosives, Omega particles, red matter, or something else completely), or even collapsing the singularity while the ship is still between the two realities.

I know that this is a lot of stuff to consider, but - as my new Series is set to take place in this Nu universe - these are all things that I'm thinking about.

mactavish out.

[Karg]

Speaking of Old Spock, exactly how would his knowledge of the "alternate future" affect the Federation in general and the Vulcans in particular? I realize that his knowledge of future events is practically useless in galactopolitical terms, but he would certainly know the locations of presently undiscovered resources and events of astronomical significance. He knows about V'Ger and its impending arrival [in ~13 years] (and the problem Earth will face due to the absence of whales), time travel using "the slingshot maneuver," the Bajoran subjugation by the Cardassian Union (and the subsequent discovery of the Bajoran wormhole), the Dominion, the Borg, the Son'a, and a host of other significant items and events to occur over the next ~130 years.

Or does Old Spock use his genius and future knowledge to intervene in the past, preventing Nero's arrival in the first place, whether by saving Romulus or employing time travel of some sort to contact the Federation prior to 2233, when Nero first arrived from the future. Maybe convincing Starfleet of the early 23rd century to converge at that location, perhaps in cooperation with the Klingon Empire (or perhaps not) and/or other powers, to destroy the Narada immediately upon its arrival (perhaps using tricobalt explosives, Omega particles, red matter, or something else completely), or even collapsing the singularity while the ship is still between the two realities.

I know that this is a lot of stuff to consider, but - as my new Series is set to take place in this Nu universe - these are all things that I'm thinking about.

mactavish out.

Speaking of which, Where is the DTI , 29th Century Timefleet, or the 31st Century Federation agents from the Temporal Cold war in all of this? wouldn't one of them gone back in time to prevent the changes that Nero started?

[ILikePike]

Since Orci and Abrams have shown that they will pee willy-nilly and with gleeful abandon all over cannon to create a totally new universe that they then proceed to do nothing original with; I say use your best judgment. My guess is the number of Vulcan survivors is small, probably no more than 5-10k more.

I reason this is the case because Starfleet in this universe is tiny. They evidently only have one fleet plus an auxiliary of undetermined size. (Pike mentions that Starfleet's "Primary" fleet is engaged in the Laurentian system - clearly a McGuffin to make the Enterprise the only ship in range). Additionally the universe is more compact since the Enterprise can get to Vulcan in five to seven minutes at warp five. If that is the case, a large Starfleet wouldn't be needed since one ship at warp five could cover lots of territory efficiently. Further, in Into Darkness, Enterprise made it to Kronos in like twelve minutes further reinforcing this ludicrous notion. Finally, transwarp beaming, once it becomes the norm, obviates the need for starships entirely.

Additionally as near as I can remember, the part of cannon they did adhere to is that Spock is the only Vulcan serving in Starfleet. There are no on-screen instances of other Vulcans that I can recall, on a Starship.

Here's another poser for us: Are 10k Vulcans enough to continue the species? Normally that is a population of sufficient size but we don't know the makeup. Are there too many elders among the survivors? what about genetic diversity? Or Pon Farr for that matter, since they mate every 7 years do they accelerate the cycle artificially, engage in some unauthorized eugenics, or just start a long, slow slide into extinction?

[Owen E Oulton]

Vulcans MUST mate every seven years. There's nothing to indicate that if it's logically desirable, they can't mate and reproduce at any other time. Also, with uterine tanks, there's nothing to stop them from stepping up the birth rate drastically. There might even be a case for rejoining with members of that timeline's Romulans. Also, in the mainstream TOS universe, there was at least one Federation Starfleet starship completely crewed by Vulcans, thus neatly trashing the wholly unsupported and highly illogical fannish concept that Spock was the only Vulcan in Starfleet. Certainly this would require wholesale cultural adjustments, but logic dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

[Karg]

Since Orci and Abrams have shown that they will pee willy-nilly and with gleeful abandon all over cannon to create a totally new universe that they then proceed to do nothing original with; I say use your best judgment. My guess is the number of Vulcan survivors is small, probably no more than 5-10k more.

I reason this is the case because Starfleet in this universe is tiny. They evidently only have one fleet plus an auxiliary of undetermined size. (Pike mentions that Starfleet's "Primary" fleet is engaged in the Laurentian system - clearly a McGuffin to make the Enterprise the only ship in range). Additionally the universe is more compact since the Enterprise can get to Vulcan in five to seven minutes at warp five. If that is the case, a large Starfleet wouldn't be needed since one ship at warp five could cover lots of territory efficiently. Further, in Into Darkness, Enterprise made it to Kronos in like twelve minutes further reinforcing this ludicrous notion. Finally, transwarp beaming, once it becomes the norm, obviates the need for starships entirely.

?

I could go along with this if it was a parallel universe. But by arriving in the past and causing changes, this is an alternate timeline. Certain thing should not be changed, IE distances between star systems, size of the Federation or Starfleet at the time of divergance or the fact that Khan is suddenly Caucasian.

[Owen E Oulton]

Enough differences were established right away to indicate this is a parallel timeline, not just an alternate. Spock not only travelled back in time, but between universes. That's the only way to explain the bulk of the discrepancies. The laws of physica aren't even the same here. The technology, uniforms and weapons are different. Klingons never underwent the augment virus. Families travel on operational starship long before they did in the main universe. In the prime universe, Delta Vega is way out on the rim, as firmly established in Where No Man Has Gone Before. Et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseum... Abrams threw the baby out with the bathwater.

[ILikePike]

Interestingly enough, Transwarp beaming is a bigger threat to galactic security than Genesis ever was. Think about it; it evidently has no discernible range limitations so theoretically any empire that has this technology could deposit an invading army on any planet with no advanced warning. So now the Federation is effectively the Iconians for all intents and purposes; and given Starfleet's rather lackluster process of picking its admiralty (in both universes as the mad admiral seems to be a staple) it's within the realm of possibility. Even on a small scale the damage Section 31 could do with it is hard to imagine. Fortunately for all involved, the Klingons won't ever get it since they invade planets via zip line. ��

But I digress... anyone disagree with my thoughts on surviving Vulcans?

I guess you could explain the size discrepancy by making the JJverse a pocket universe.

[WaveMan]

I agree there would be far more Vulcan's left then the 10K that was quoted in the end of the movie.

Like I have said many times writers write story line's to sell movies/franchises/series. They change the rules to suit themselves, often ignoring them completely, or they write in a loop hole's (which I find really annoying, basically they are throwing it in your face that they have deviated from established canon and are willing to treat fans like idiots.

A perfect example was the plot line of the USS Defiant's having a cloaking device and then justifying the plot by stationing a Romulan on board. It would have been a simple matter to add a different sort of defensive counter measure device onto the Defiant, other then a cloaking device [such as a splinter image device or a broad band ECM type device or a energy sheath or a holographic hull device etc] IMHO this sort of thing shows poor form and poor writing. Also this type of writing tends to infuriate fans who overwhelmingly want consistency and writers to stick to canon. Consistency is why fan sites like this quote "canon", and will invariably loose it when they deviate from Canon.

RE the transwarp beaming, it is ridiculous, Kronos is slightly less then 90 LY from Earth, an impossibly long beaming distance for all but a hand full of races in the Milky way galaxy as of the 22nd century (as you said Iconian's could do it, but hell they made a Dyson Sphere that could move around so were pretty much capable of anything...) I also found the ability to communicate over vast distances in real time ludicrous, subspace communications takes 53 minutes to travel 20LY (as per canon), so Kirk couldn't have had a meaningful conversion with Scotty as shown in the movie.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Interestingly enough, Transwarp beaming is a bigger threat to galactic security than Genesis ever was. Think about it; it evidently has no discernible range limitations so theoretically any empire that has this technology could deposit an invading army on any planet with no advanced warning.

Good thing Richard Dean Anderson is here to save us.

[Karg]

Enough differences were established right away to indicate this is a parallel timeline, not just an alternate. Spock not only travelled back in time, but between universes. That's the only way to explain the bulk of the discrepancies. The laws of physica aren't even the same here. The technology, uniforms and weapons are different. Klingons never underwent the augment virus. Families travel on operational starship long before they did in the main universe. In the prime universe, Delta Vega is way out on the rim, as firmly established in Where No Man Has Gone Before. Et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseum... Abrams threw the baby out with the bathwater.

i can get on board with a parallel timeline & universe. makes more sense.

[Karg]

But I digress... anyone disagree with my thoughts on surviving Vulcans?

There has to be more survivors than those that were on Vulcan. There might be a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand on Starfleet & private vessels on top of those that are on other planets and colonies at the time of destruction.

Here is another thought, shouldn't all those Vulcans dieing have been felt by the surviving Vulcans? In "the Immunity Syndrome" Spock felt the crew of the Intrepid die as the space amoeba destroyed it, and that was only 400+ Vulcans

[ILikePike]

A perfect example was the plot line of the USS Defiant's having a cloaking device and then justifying the plot by stationing a Romulan on board. It would have been a simple matter to add a different sort of defensive counter measure device onto the Defiant, other then a cloaking device [such as a splinter image device or a broad band ECM type device or a energy sheath or a holographic hull device etc] IMHO this sort of thing shows poor form and poor writing. Also this type of writing tends to infuriate fans who overwhelmingly want consistency and writers to stick to canon. Consistency is why fan sites like this quote "canon", and will invariably loose it when they deviate from Canon.

Yeah, if the writers were hell bent on using a cloak, they could've just dusted off the phase cloak from the Pegasus. Voilà built in cloak and plot hooks as the crew goes nuts from being out of phase.

I guess there would be a total of 15 - 20K surviving Vulcans. But you raise an interesting point, if they can feel Vulcans buying arable land en masse, how many just went insane?

[Owen E Oulton]

IMHO, there should be many more Vulcans than only a couple of dozen thousand. If Vulcan had any colonies to speak of, as it did in the mainstream universe, there should have been a few million at least. More than enough to ensure genetic diversity and preserve the culture (although the only culture that Abrams brings is similar to the cheese culture Neelix infected Voyager's bio-neural gel-packs with.