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Thread: Please, don't judge us all by our government!

  1. #16
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:


    When they came to take the communists, I was silent. I am no communist.

    When they took the jews, I didn't say anything. I am a christian.

    Even when they took away the catholics I keept silent. I am no catholic.

    When they came to take me, there was non left to say a word.

    Dietrich Bonhöffer (IIRC)

    </font>
    Wow! Thanks for sharing this! Powerful words!

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captian Zymmer:


    Canada has had it's moments of not caring...there where those Chinese imigrants off Vancouver who all died on the boat (or were the East Indian) waiting to get into Canada.

    </font>
    When was this? They were held off shore or died on the way?

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cmder JT Wayland:


    But, we have our own Illegal Immigration problems, yours maybe a swarm of boat people, ours is hundreds of people trying to get across or under the channel. It seems everyday we hear and read reports of illegal immegrants either trying to sail dingies and liferafts across the channel or hanging underneath the Eurostar Trains. And its not just men trying to get in, its pregnant women and kids as well.

    </font>
    Frenchmen? I assume not! I had always thought the large majority of immigrants to Europe went to Germany (easier immigration laws). Does the U.K get a lot of immigrants and from where?

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alderon:


    Christmas Island is a lot closer to Indonesia than Australia. It's a tiny dot in the Indian Ocean, about (IIRC) a thousand or so kilometres west of Darwin, a few hundred kilometres south of Java. It is tiny; the islands only about 15km long and has a population of less than 2,000.

    </font>
    Is the population Indonesian or Aust.? How did Aust. get the island? What is it's status (protectorate, territory, other)?

    And your comment about the Aust. Senate: don't they have power to enforce their desision? Or is it like the U.K House of Lords. . .more for show than a purpose? The courts have the power to enfoce a Senate decision while the Senate doesn't?

    Sorry for the questions, but I am confused. It seems the Senate admits the problem and wants to fix it. . .but can't?



  2. #17
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    Britain has a huge problem with asylum seekers and illegal immigrants.

    So much so that our government has introduced fines for lorry drivers, ferry companies and Eurostar if immigarnts are found smuggled about the respective transport.

    Eurostar is threating to take the governemnt to court, claiming that it should not be required to do the job of HM Customs.



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  3. #18
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Greg Smith:
    lorry drivers
    </font>
    Sorry, translation problem . "Lorry Drivers?"

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Greg Smith:
    Eurostar is threating to take the governemnt to court, claiming that it should not be required to do the job of HM Customs.
    </font>
    Eurostar has a good point in my opinion. However my knowledge of your law and its application are not the best.


  4. #19
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    Lorry: British word meaning Truck. Not like pickup truck, but like Mack truck (or, at the smallest I believe, like a UPS truck)



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    "You got your roleplaying game in my Star Trek!"
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  5. #20
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by redwood973:
    Sorry, translation problem . "Lorry Drivers?"</font>
    "Lorry" is UKese for what Americans prefer to call "Trucks".



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    You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

  6. #21

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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by redwood973:
    Frenchmen? I assume not! I had always thought the large majority of immigrants to Europe went to Germany (easier immigration laws). Does the U.K get a lot of immigrants and from where?

    </font>
    If our media is to be believed. From everywhere in the world as they run to bask in the UKs glory.

    However, realism sets in, and I imagine that like the rest of Europe the vast majority of the refugees and asylum seekers are running from the warring states in the former communist block...

    To be honest, I dont blame a single one for wanting to not be there. But the trans european 'pass the parcel' moved on from country to country is simply taking the piss.




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    DanG.

    "Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

    http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

  7. #22
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    "Instead, we trashed the Third World, which led us directly to the Talibans, Hutus, and Somali militas of the present. It also made us unable to absorb the former Soviet bloc, which has greatly expanded the scale of our planet's degeneration.

    Now, it is all too late. The planet is dying, and the great migrations have begun. I imagine that the developed coutries will try harder and harder to hang onto their ways of life, eventually turning to ethnic hatred and wars of their own, until essentially we are living in a planetary Somalia."

    That is so much crap. I agree that the US lack of support for the Afghani mujjahadin after the Soviet withdrawl was the main factor in the creation of the Taliban. But the Hutus and Tutsis and Somalis were a problem just waiting to happen all on their own; just like the rest of the African continent is a mess due to tribal provincialism, nepotistic governments, and overpopulation.

    I get tired of hearing how awful America has done the world. It was plenty screwed up before the US had any kind of major influence. And don't blame the colonial powers either; if anything their influence prepared (not wholely) the undeveloped world for a globalised, post-Westphalian world system.

    On another note, I find the UN's categorization of Australia as one of the five best countries to live in amusing in light of this debacle, the mistreatment of the Abos (Gee...you mean some one else other the US abused it's indigenous population? I'm shocked!) But the UN based it's ideas on good-ol' socialist-leaning nations that fall in step with the UN plan.

    Want to know what's going on in the world? Ignore CNN -- go to news.bbc.co.uk

    Aunt Beeb. She had me several hours ahead of the other analysts (at least) when I was working intelligence.

  8. #23
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    Qerlin,
    Until a week or so ago, I would have disagreed with you.

    Now, I'm not so sure.

    The fact that so many Australians seem to be backing the government's position simply disgusts me.

    Maybe I'll emigrate to New Zealand or Norway - despite the fact that neither of those countries are directly involved (well, the Tampa is Norwegian, but otherwise Norway's uninvolved), they have offered to take the refugees.

    I might start lying and telling people I'm an ex-patriate Kiwi...

    ------------------
    "Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of ancient stars - it is our destiny to return home..."

  9. #24
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    I'm not one to second guess world leaders, but there's something that I would like to share with you from the Hong Kong AFP. Back in 3-5AUG01, there were a series of arrests made by the Taliban government against a German organization called "Shelter Now" which included eight westerners. They've been accused of prostelytizing while providing relief. Two of those westerners are Australians. The Australian diplomatic corp is working there tails off to secure their release.

    Again, I am not one to second-guess world leaders, but have y'all thought that this refugee situation could be tied to this other problem? Have y'all considered that the Australian government is avoiding antagonizing the Taliban government for the sake of two of their citizens?

    I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but try to keep in mind that not everything is so clear cut.

  10. #25
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aldaron:
    Qerlin,
    Until a week or so ago, I would have disagreed with you.

    Now, I'm not so sure.

    The fact that so many Australians seem to be backing the government's position simply disgusts me.

    Maybe I'll emigrate to New Zealand or Norway - despite the fact that neither of those countries are directly involved (well, the Tampa is Norwegian, but otherwise Norway's uninvolved), they have offered to take the refugees.

    I might start lying and telling people I'm an ex-patriate Kiwi...

    </font>
    Norway, huh..? No point in running anywhere; nothing chages with the country. People are driven by self-interest. You just have to suck it up. There's no group of people that haven't committed some attrocity, some work of great beauty, oppressed or have been oppressed...Might want to look into Norway's action during WWII.

  11. #26
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    Thumbs up

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dave Biggins:
    I'm not one to second guess world leaders, but there's something that I would like to share with you from the Hong Kong AFP. Back in 3-5AUG01, there were a series of arrests made by the Taliban government against a German organization called "Shelter Now" which included eight westerners. They've been accused of prostelytizing while providing relief. Two of those westerners are Australians. The Australian diplomatic corp is working there tails off to secure their release.

    Again, I am not one to second-guess world leaders, but have y'all thought that this refugee situation could be tied to this other problem? Have y'all considered that the Australian government is avoiding antagonizing the Taliban government for the sake of two of their citizens?

    I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but try to keep in mind that not everything is so clear cut.
    </font>

    Why would you get flamed? Nice to see someone paying attention to the siderial events.

    This is why running your country's policies of of public angst and opinion is a bad idea; even the well-informed often don't have the whole picture.

  12. #27
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    Sigh. Looks like I'm delving even deeper into my "Cardassian" alter ego on this one.
    Undocumented immigration has become a major issue, especially with the growing disparity between developed and not-quite-so developed countries (let alone, Not-even-close-to-developed-and-barely-even-civilized countries). Especially the ones with reprehensible or simply distasteful governments.
    Still, for me, the bottom line is that refugee or not, you simply do NOT try to sneak into someplace where you are not wanted or legally allowed to enter and then whine when the authorities of that state attempt to block your entry.
    As idealistic and altruistic as it sounds for the developed world to take in all comers in an "Open Door" sort of policy, in practice this would lead to massive upheavals and unmanageable social crises.
    This case is a little more complicated than many, with some rather disturbing or at least distasteful incidents. But, IMHO, the refugees had NO legal right to enter Australian territory and should not have expected unimpeded entry.
    It is embarrassing for the Australian government to have to play "Grinch" to such desperate refugees, but honestly, do you see Europe flinging open the doors to mass African migration? Is Japan likely to take in thousands of Indonesians, Vietnamese, Filipinos or anyone else who comes knocking in search of a better life? The US has been waging virtual war against would-be immigration from our southern neighbors.
    Welcome to the harsh, cold world of the Six Billion Humans.

  13. #28

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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sheliak Bob:
    It is embarrassing for the Australian government to have to play "Grinch" to such desperate refugees, but honestly, do you see Europe flinging open the doors to mass African migration? </font>

    On the whole I agree with you on your comments about trying to 'sneak' in the back door.

    There are many people that go out of their way to cut corners, and I am sure that the representation of the population includes equal numbers of 'blaggers' as does the world around us.

    But there is another way to look at it. Many of these refugees seem to go out of their way to find refuge, no matter if the route puts their life in danger or not! I refer to the hundreds found frozen to death in the unpresurised holds of aircraft. Or even in a UK news story from yesterday, a bunch of Eastern European refugees were stopped from trying to WALK through the channel tunnel.

    For anyone that doesn't know, the Chunnel is a train tunnel, several miles long connecting the south coast of the UK to France (and mainland Europe).

    To be hoinest, if your route has a greater chance of ending in your death, then there really HAS to be some extra consideration of your desperation...

    But to be honest, my Chagrin with the Aussie situation, is not the Oz has denied access to the refugees, but that they are doiing so AFTER their coast guard ensured that this freighter picked up the refugees from the sinking ship.

    Like it or not, that act has involved the Australian government, and made these people their responsibility. At least in my eyes, but when has my world view had any bearing on reality!



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    DanG.

    "Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

    http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

  14. #29
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    My biggest beef in particular is actually with the use of armed troops - and our elite unit, at that - against unarmed civilians.

    In my book, this is a law-enforcement situation. If (and that's a big "if") boarding the Tampa was required, it should have been Federal police or Customs personnel, not a platoon of the Special Air Service Regiment!

    Soldiers fight wars.
    Cops keep the peace and enforce the law.

    When you start mixing the two up, it leads to all kinds of problems, IMO.

    Re: The Australian government's potential "appeasement" of the Taliban. That's a no-goer, I'm afraid.

    The Taliban has actually contacted the Australian government and asked Canberra to take care of the refugees 'for humanitarian reasons'. Now, I certainly don't for a minute think the Taliban are experts on anything 'humanitarian', but it knocks out the idea that Howard is trying to appease the Taliban into giving up the folks imprisoned.

    One of the things a lot of people have been scratching their heads about down here is why the hell doesn't Howard say to the Taliban: "Okay, you give us our people back, we'll look after yours."

    But no, he just seems content to piss off everyone except the voters. Which reveals the situation for what it is, really - nothing more than a cynical pre-election stunt.

    Nice to think we have a leader who'll play dice with 400+ lives to try and buy a few votes...

    ------------------
    "Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of ancient stars - it is our destiny to return home..."

  15. #30
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    Looks like there may be a solution in sight.

    It appears New Zealand and (wait for it!) Nauru are going to take the refugees and hang onto them while their claims are processed.

    *shaking my head in disbelief*
    So even though a nation about the size of the town I live in is going to accept 300 of them, John Howard is still crowing about our "success" in this matter.

    Excuse me while I go and puke...

    ------------------
    "Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of ancient stars - it is our destiny to return home..."

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