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Darkwing please do not generalize all Canadians as tolerant gutless cowards because of the opinion of a few (who I suspect did not have roots like I have going back even before these two great nations of ours were formed). I am totally APALLED and INCENSED because of last Tuesdays attack on your soil but remember that the attack on the WTC had casualties from many nations. Canadians have lost 60-100 dead. Britain nearly twice as many and so on and so on. Our PM has fully backed the US as they were 75,000 of our countrymen that came out in Ottawa to mourn on Friday and the PM alongside your ambassador here stated, "Canadians shall not be silent". I am angry too that these Canadians do not realize they have been assaulted as well. Tolerance be damned. We have been tolerant for years. War is not a time to be dishing out flowers and consulting with guidance/grief conselors for hope of a better world. Get real. Yes we must strive for those honorable goals and try not to undermine our own principles but clearly these fanatics have no regard for anyone and the entire world community associated with the west in any form is their potential victim. TO say otherwise is to ignore what occurred last Tuesday as a very threat to our lives. Its easy to disassocciate from this act when you THINK you are not directly involved with it, it couldn't happen to you or its someone elses problem or even more diabolically think the act may have been justified. Some Canadians should be ashamed to call themselves as such. Traitors and cowards live among us everywhere I suppose.It should be interesting to note that a poem is going round the net by Canadian Gordon Sinclair that speaks to the hearts
of most Americans. The humourous thing (if there can be any at a time like this) is that some Americans are thanking him for writing it even though he wrote it years ago and hes been dead for years. AlL I can say is this Canadian and my families support the US and her allies to combat this "phantom menace" so that we can travel in planes or go to work without the fear of someone wanted to blow us up.
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We don't worry about IRA terrorsists so much any more. They are sitting in the government of Northern Ireland.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by spyone:
I think that Britain doesn't have to worry about IRA violence any more. And the Irish Catholics need not fear violence from pro-Britain extremists. And they can thank Osama bin Laden. When I say we won't put up with this kind of stuff, I mean EVERYONE.
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Sadly terrorists win sometimes. It is not until we listen to what they say and make compromises, that their attacks will stop.
I'm not for a second saying that the US should talk to a fanatic like bin Laden or acquiesce to his stated aim of removing US troops from the middle east. But somewhere in the future the US will have to modify its policy towards the middle east and Palestine, if it wants atrocities such as those on Tuesday to cease.
This does NOT mean that I condone terrorism in any shape or form. I am as saddened and appalled by Tuesday's attacks as everyone else.
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Greg
"Calm may work for Locutus of Borg here, but I'm freaked and intend to stay that way."
Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Prophecy Girl.
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“I am not frightened. I’m going to blow them off the face of the earth with the fury of God’s own thunder.”
“Let the word ring forth from this time and this place. You kill an American, any American, we don’t come back with a proportional response, we come back with total disaster!”
“Did you know that 2000 years ago, a Roman Citizen could walk across the face of the known world free of the fear of molestation. He could walk across the earth unharmed, cloaked only in the protection of the words ‘civus romanus’: I am a Roman citizen. So great was the retribution of Rome universally understood as certain, should any harm befall even one of its citizens. Where was Morris’ protection or anyone else on that airplane? Where was the retribution for the families? Where is the warning to the rest of the world, that Americans shall walk this earth unharmed, lest the clenched fist of the most powerful nation in all mankind comes crashing down on your house?”
All quotes by President Bartlet (Martin Sheen) from the West Wing episode Proportional Response. They seem morbidly fitting now.
When I saw the World Trade Center in flames, my first thought was that this was some sick joke. I'm still not sure I've managed to face the full reality of what's happened.
I have never before heard the Battle Hymn of the Republic played so often, and I've never felt it to be more fitting.
I'll freely admit admit that I suspected that President Bush would act without thinking, and I'm very pleased to have been proven wrong. We in Europe have a tendency to forget that America has come to our support several times (WW1, WW2, the Cold War, Bosnia and Kosovo). Like EU President Romano Prodi said, now it's Europe's time to come to America's aid.
And besides, this terrorist act wasn't aimed at America itself, but everything it is the symbol of: democracy, liberty and market economy.
This terrorist act was aimed at the free world, and the free world must unite to combat it.
The Swedish Prime Minister put it well: "If democracy is unable to put an end to terrorism, terrorism will put an end to democracy."
This was an attack on all of us.
I'm also very relieved that the leaders (presidents and prime ministers) have all reminded us that islam and muslims are not collectively to blame. We should not persecute them. Instead:
Let us find bin Laden and his terrorist followers, and let us wipe them off the face of the Earth with the fury of God's own thunder.
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"It's an M-class planet, so there should be roddenberries."
Leela, Futurama
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Huth do you think there is no price to be paid in all of this?<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by C. Huth:
Do Not Retailiate.</font>
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Sorry. I do tend to get self-righteous in philosophical discussions.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Originally posted by StyroFoam Man:
Now that pisses me off, to suggest that I or anone elese civilized world does not know the difference between good and evil. Yes we are imperfect, we accept braodly that it is alright to kill in war, that is a sin which we as Christians and all faiths have delt and continue to deal with it but don't you dare to think of yourself as so rightous to say we don't know what good and evil are!
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The question I was trying to ask is what moral right do we have to exact vengeance on those who attack us?
[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-16-2001).]
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This discussion has, unfortunately, not at all been helped by my presence. I’m just going to pull out. From now on, not a word from my mouth on these kinds of issues; it upsets too many people and contrary to what it may look like, I don’t like to do that. What do I know, anyway? ‘It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.’ My sincere apologies to those I have offended.
I hope that this situation may end well, but I doubt it.
Again, I’m sorry.
[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-16-2001).]
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I know that you are upset but you are tarring an entire nation because of a few people who may or may not be from there or are simply trolling the internet.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by darkwing duck1:
You know, there's a special forum over at the 3dg site for this topic, and there are several Canadians on there too that are lecturing at us Americans with that "now, now, be civilized" tone.
What is it with you guys, anyways? Your country hasn't been attacked; ours has! The symbols of your nation didn't get kamikazed; ours did!
If you don't want to support us as we set out to slaughter every last terrorist we can get our hands on, then FINE! But don't you DARE lecture to us about "staying civilized"!
You don't have that right!
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I have read similar posts from Americans. It is not their nationality at issue but rather their aims.
Everyone has developed an extremely thin skin since last Tuesday, I have ranted myself and you know that I seldom post anything overly large. I have no problem with this. But is anything gained by responding to a troll. They do not care what they have said as long as they get a response. They will never change their mind no matter what is said to them.
Allowing these small individuals anger you to the point that you begin insulting your friends lets them win.
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C.Huth if we removed your post then we would become what we hate. The fact you can speak and say what you like as while as face the argument it invokes makes you ten times the better man, then those who who would have you only to keep your mouth shut and do nothing.
In a perfect world govern by wise and sane human beings your thoughts would be the truth, but we don't live in that perfect world. we are told that "those who live by the sworn shall perish by the sword" good quote but it leaves nothing as to the idenity and being of the being swaying the sword, does it? Until the day when the beings swaying the sword are allowed to sheath their swords, (which is the difference between the two,) conflict will be the norm. We are all peoples born of war, our collective nations tempered in its flames, all have been united by it, some have nearly been destroyed by it, but yet we all as nations still hold that while war is never right sometimes it is the only right answer to the question before us. We can gain strength that those who were once mortal enemies Britian and France, Britian the the US, Germany and everybody are now one and nearly undivided in all but reality of goverence. Others have decided that violence and war is the only answer, that life is cheap and without merit, so it is easy to part with. Until the day they come to the true understanding of their own beliefs our sword will have to remain out of its sheath ready and able to defend, while the holder prys for the day when it will be sheathed forever. And a just and lasting peace "amoung ourselves and all nations" will be achieved.
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Ok wait and lets look at this, we were critising, often, Isreali actions concerning the palestinians we had begun to considered how to deal with Isreal using US arms in putting down the uprising, we were giving million of dollars of aid to them to help them to build the Gaza Strip and West bank. I am tired in hearing we have to change are attitude toward the Palestinians. In the end because we support the nation of Isreal and that it has a right to exist is the source of the problem as long as that remains there is no way to that we could satisfy all of the Palistinians.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Greg Smith:
I'm not for a second saying that the US should talk to a fanatic like bin Laden or acquiesce to his stated aim of removing US troops from the middle east. But somewhere in the future the US will have to modify its policy towards the middle east and Palestine, if it wants atrocities such as those on Tuesday to cease.</font>
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[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by C. Huth:
How can you do that if you don't even know Good and Evil yourselves?
Now that pisses me off, to suggest that I or anone elese civilized world does not know the difference between good and evil. Yes we are imperfect, we accept braodly that it is alright to kill in war, that is a sin which we as Christians and all faiths have delt and continue to deal with it but don't you dare to think of yourself as so rightous to say we don't know what good and evil are!
[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-16-2001).][/B]</font>
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by C. Huth:
I hope that this situation may end well, but I doubt it.
Again, I’m sorry.
[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-16-2001).][/B]</font>
While your comments might have angered some (I most certanly disagree your comments) if we begine to censure what is written or spoken, we go against what the USA is all about.
Most peoples feelings about this subject could best be summed up by this statemen.
Sure we are brothers and sisters. And like all brothers and sisters we fight among ourselves. But if anyone should pick on one of our brothers and sisters, GOD HELP THEM.
And as a side note, These policemen and firemen do not make enough money for this
Karg
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All these worlds are yours, except Europa, which is a wholy owned subsidary of weownthattoo, Inc. (TM)
[This message has been edited by Karg (edited 09-17-2001).]
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Originally posted by the Styro:
'As an example we should nuke one city over there. Let them know that we can do this every time someone blows up a Pizza Shop in Israel. Make the death-toll so horribly high that they stop and say "Do we really want to see this happen again?"'
Styro, if you come round my house and kill my brother, no-one (well, no-one who believes in the death penalty) is going to argue if you fry for it. If I come round in vengeance and wipe out your entire family, all of whom were sat round watching TV the night the crime occurred, then I'm just as guilty as you are (more so). I don't deny justice needs to be done here, but if we're going to say that we are morally stronger than these terrorists, we can't sink to their level. A proportional response is going to be difficult, but I'll sleep a hell of a lot easier about it than if we vapourize a million innocent people in Baghdad (or wherever) just out of blind vengeance.
Northern Ireland showed that revenge attacks just create more angry people on the other side to become terrorists in future. And if you think nuking cities until they're too afraid of you to consider terrorism is going to work, I'm afraid you're sadly mistaken. If the fact that these people's countries have absolutely no chance against the States didn't put them off, this sort of thing won't either. You go this route, and you will have to commit genocide (and I mean the proper use of the word, which people seem to have forgotten here - genocide is not what happened to the US, but the total extinction of a culture), or these people will be back in 10, 15 or 20 years, even more pissed at the US and willing to die for their cause than ever before.
I want people dead for this attack. I want the ones who organized and carried it out dead. I want governments that shield them punished politically. But I don't want genocide. If we do that, we go against everything people have been celebrating the United States as a champion of.
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"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest
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