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Thread: America's Loss

  1. #16
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    Thumbs down

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
    There is no government on Earth that exist without the consent of its people be it democratic or tolitarian.
    </font>
    Eric, you can't be serious!

    (from www.dictionary.com)
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
    to·tal·i·tar·i·an
    adj.
    Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: “A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).
    </font>
    What I'm just trying to say is that this is exactly what a totalitarian government is all about: ruling without the consent of its people. And I bet that if I (or you, for that matter) had the misfortune to be living under such a regime, I would just keep my mouth shut and be happy if I could make it to the end of the day ... or maybe I would already have been shot, which is not very comforting either ... in any case, the regime would still be in place, even if I didn't want it to.

    [This message has been edited by Calcoran (edited 09-12-2001).]

  2. #17
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    Hey guys, my boss's husband is one of those listed as missing from the Pentagon. Keep them in y'all's porayers, will you?

  3. #18
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Don:



    Forgive me for painting a picture of a worst case scenario that thankfully has not happened yet on TrekRPGNet. However, as I said, I’m seeing it on other discussion boards all over and I would continue to caution our members to discuss and post in a responsible manner.
    </font>
    However Don I think you should point out so far, we have been discussing this in a tone and manner less heated than even that of the famous Marine and Money debates and that is everyones credit .


  4. #19
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    Question

    Sorry, what's a "porayer"?

    All my thoughts to you boss, though.

  5. #20
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    This is a problem - many of the regimes which harbour these criminals are not elected by the people. If the British government harbours a terrorist and I disagree, I can make my displeasure known. If they continue to act in a way I despise, I can help vote them out at the next Election (and when public feeling against the Government runs very high, there can be a vote of no confidence, which if they lose means an immediate election). Granted, given the current lack of decent choices amongst the Opposition parties, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't (just slightly less damned if I do...).

    The people under these regimes don't have that option. Certainly, the Taliban has a lot of popular support in Afghanistan - but they can tell the people whatever the hell they like about the Americans and no-one can gainsay it. The problem is, how can you make these countries democratic without inciting them against you so much that even a democratic government hates you?

    You know, sometimes I think we shouldn't have bothered coming down out of the trees. Let the dolphins have the planet.

    ------------------
    "Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest

  6. #21
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    Thumbs up


    Got to aol that, Capt Hunter. There's truth in what you wrote, and moreover you wrote it well.

  7. #22
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Calcoran:
    What I'm just trying to say is that this is exactly what a totalitarian government is all about: ruling without the consent of its people. And I bet that if I (or you, for that matter) had the misfortune to be living under such a regime, I would just keep my mouth shut and be happy if I could make it to the end of the day ... or maybe I would already have been shot, which is not very comforting either ... in any case, the regime would still be in place, even if I didn't want it to.

    [This message has been edited by Calcoran (edited 09-12-2001).]
    </font>
    Germany: Nazi's rose to power on the ballot. (1932-33)
    Italy: Popular support of the march on Roma leads to Fascist in power. (1922)
    Cambodia: Jubilant crowds welcome the Komar Rogue (1975)
    Russia: The Communist sieze power by popular and well organized demonstrations. (1917)
    France: A people tied of ten years of constant revolution allow a Dictator to sieze total power. (1801)
    Mexico: A popular backed general siezes control of the country as crowds greet him at the gates(1871) (?)

    Conversly
    All of Eastern Europe: enough is enough (1989)
    Russia: Apc in flames as hardlines try to reassert control (1991)
    Phillipines: Mass demonstrations led to fall of dictator (1986)
    Yugoslavia: Mass demonstration causes fall of nationalist dictator (1999)
    France: enough is enough (1789, 1849, 1871, 1945, eta.)

    No the power in any government is in the hands of the people if the people set aside and let their government do what it wants it gives that government support. I say this not because of wanting to be hurtful or mean, but you should relook at what you wrote inlight that many good Frenchmen (and Women) died in the Resistance and Free French because they would not sit on the side in comfort they where willing to fight for what they believed in. Even if it was an occupation the principle is the same they decided not to be ruled by the tolitarian and fought that government.

    The supreme mission of the tolitaian is make sure the people forget this by controlling there life and making them feel they can not exist without them, your quote only gives the meaning of the state of, not the how and why of its existence.


  8. #23
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    The problem, Eric, is that this is much easier said (specially in our comfy democracies) than done.
    Of course, would France become suddenly a totalitary government, I'm pretty sure I would voice my disapproval. And be shot/imprisoned/whatever unpleasant thing they usually do. Am I that sure I would protest then? Well probably ... and still be imprisoned. Things like this take time. Things like this take planning. Hell, the French revolution even took more than a thousand years to mature! Eastern Europe needed almost a century to shake its communist dictatorship off! And I'm pretty sure Massoud, if still alive, wouldn't contradict me!

    Well ... just trying to defend those people living under a totalitarian government, maybe we'd be no better than them if placed in the same conditions.

  9. #24
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    Its not that I am judging these poeple as totaly bad like I said the goal of a tolitarian government is to convince them they have no power. Many regimes are very effective at this, the Nazi's and the Communist being first rate examples, however it worth noting the "Democratic" trappings these governments usually envoke, however if they can not the people mange to get rid of them as Italy did with the Facist is 1943.

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  11. #26
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    Angry

    Hi
    To begin with, I can't begin to describe how Pissed off, Hurt, Saddend, and Violated I Feel.

    I Can only hope that the Animals behind this are caught and dealt with.

    I also can't help feeling how close I came to being caught in this. I'm an Engineer for a Fire Sprinkler Contractor in NYC. I was to be in the city for a meeting later that morning. We have a few jobsites near the WTC, within 2-10 blocks away. We had men on these jobs- Thankfully they left wen the 1st plane hit. One of the planes engines landed on the jobsite 10 blocks away. Several of My office mates were supossed to be in NYC, All in the Downtown area. Thankfully they decided to come to the office 1st before this tragedy happened. I also know a few people on the NYPD and NYFD. My prayers go out to them and anyone involved in this tragedy.

    GOD BLESS AMERICA

    Karg

  12. #27
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    I have just learned today that 3 Canadians were on board the planes that crashed into the WTC, and that there were probably a fair number in the towers themselves.

    I am proud that Canada has joined the rest of EU (and Western World) and stands shoulder to shoulder with our allies south of the border. Make no mistake we will hold the line, we will not disappear, we will not slip quietly into the darkness. We will fight and crush the life out of the cowards who carried out this atrocity. As Pres. Bush stated they can run, but they can't hide.

    I know that Sec. of State Powell has said that NATO help does not mean actual militery assistance, but I hope Canada has an active role in making them pay.

    ------------------
    In the Praetors Name!

  13. #28
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    Captain Blake, you are very welcome. And thank you for your compliments.

    ------------------
    Slan agat!

  14. #29
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    Wink

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Calcoran:
    Sorry, what's a "porayer"?

    All my thoughts to you boss, though.
    </font>
    A "porayer" is a "prayer" typed in by someone with fat fingers. Sorry about the Typo...

    Seriously, though, thank you all for the kind sentiments. When I get back to DC, I'll send y'all more info as I hear it (looks like a long road trip right now...)



    [This message has been edited by Dave Biggins (edited 09-12-2001).]

  15. #30
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    Unhappy

    A day has passed for me. I've slept, I've been at work, yet I'm still very sad, and I can't imagine how it must be for you in the States. I received this morning (which is the middle of the night for you) a mail from a friend who works in San Fran. He's a rather jolly guy, however, I've seldom seen him being so grave.

    I've been thinking a bit, and a few hours ago, while reading this board, I had the feeling I knew, not whodunnit, but whydunnit.

    These people hijacked America to crash it on the world.

    It all seems so frightfully simple. Take the most powerful nation in the world, the only super power remaining, the one that could wipe any nation from the face of Earth. Strike it hard, as it had never been before, make it bleed. Then stand back and watch. What will the giant do, now it has been wounded?
    The worst scenario would be of course the States losing control and using our friend U238 (or 235, I never remember - anyway, it's Pu now, or H) to clean the world. But there are many other things that could happen, and not only in America. Distrust, hatred, need of revenge, racial prejudices coming back, retaliations, protests, other retaliations, retaliations to retaliations, fights between those who seek revenge and pacifists... what would matter to these beings if they're destroyed in the process? Remember, they're kamikazes. They don't care if America (or NATO, or whatever) anihilates them, as long as the rest of the world is busily tearing itself apart.

    I hope my point was clear, sometimes it's hard to write exaclty what you think (especially in a foreign language). We must stay calm. We must keep our head clear, however difficult that may be (I know this sounds easy for me, 5 000 kilomters from NY, and knowing absolutely no victim). This is how we can fight what happened.
    I fervently hope that the US government will remember that as well. We have to prove to these creatures that now mankind has grown up. This thing (I've run out of words in my poor vocabulary) that happened must help us to build a better world now, instead of destroying it, as was expected from us.

    Well, I hope I didn't offended anyone, but I had to let this out. My thoughts to all of you who had been striken by this things (and especially Dave here, as everybody else did before me - personnally, I'm an atheist, but I'm praying whatever I believe in).

    And since this is a Star Trek site... do any of you remember DS9's episode Paradise Lost (and its prequel whose name I forgot)? I'm very strongly thinking to it (with the Federation as the world at large, not only USA) : the Dominion did one bombing, and next thing we know the Federation was ready to implode.
    Hope there are enough Siskos out there.

    [This message has been edited by C5 (edited 09-12-2001).]

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