America's Loss

[Capt.Hunter]

Good point - keep this as a criminal matter. After all, they'll be extradited to the US after trial and then you can kill 'em anyway.

As for people celebrating this, I think you have to understand the level of hatred some of these populations feel towards the States. It isn't just a matter of "The US supported Israel, so they are the enemy by association". Countries like Korea, Thailand and nearly Malaysia (which, by the way, is one of the most stable and humane places in the Middle East) were hit hard a few years back because the US had bought up vast amounts of the local currency and then dumped it back on the market - the idea being to devalue the currency and thus make it easier to buy businesses in those regions. It worked - the States got good deals on those businesses. It also put over a million people in the area out of work, who were already on the poverty line (and if you're below the poverty line in those regions, you stand a good chance of starving to death). Several governments resigned because they couldn't cope with the devaluation of the economy.

I'm not saying that any of this justifies what happened two days ago, but at least it shows why there is such palpable anger at the States, and why some of these people might celebrate.

Someone said this was a good thing because it made America realize it can't distance itself from world events. Find those responsible and deal with them, then learn from this to develop a less aggressive foreign policy. It took Saddam Hussein to be the one to say that America is reaping what it sowed from the Middle East. While he said that for his own ends, it is true to say that US foreign policy is heavy-handed and can engender resentment among these peoples.

Here in Britain, our own attempt to use our muscle against Ireland sparked terrorist action. Our situation was made more difficult because many of the people in Ireland wanted British rule. Strongarm tactics don't work - I heard the US ambassador say last night that economic sanctions were among the non-military options that could be considered. But it has already been shown in Iraq that sanctions only hit the common people, not the government. Smart leaders like Hussein can then use the suffering of the commoners to foster hatred against those who impose the sanctions.

All points worth considering, but again I want to say I don't feel they justify this horror (I don't think anything can).

------------------
"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest

[Michael Brinkhues]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jonathan Talbot:
[B]Folks, you are going to lovr this, I just got this from one of my other groups that I yap on line with, it is from Canada our Neighbor to the North...

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian
television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as
printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the
most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted
out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars
and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today
paying
even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.
</font>

AFAIK the Marshal plan was partially credit, partially donation. And we did repay the financial dept. And please remember that the US had a secondary idea behind this - either the rebuild us, or the UdSSR would.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans
who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
</font>

That's the french way. They do this with every tourist. Still, in a nice way since no one except a french can understand the rapid-fire language they use.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by
tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
</font>

Has to do with "every nation by itself unless it can not, than all others help". The US is considered too rich to need help. If they ask, they will likely get it but no one believes the need without.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars!
into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.
</font>

Nations change. Mine did, the US did. Ones there were great men. Now there are Schroeders, Bush jrs. and Blairs

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly
them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
</font>

Hmm, let's try the Airbus A300, A310, A320, A340 all build in Europe. Like the one currently flying overhead with the big Lufthansa Logo on the stabiliser. Modern planes easily give Tri-Star/DC-10 and even 747/757/767 a run for the money (and they do)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman
on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You
talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -!
not
once, but several times - and safely home again.
</font>

To be hones, I find a car more useful. The US german engineers under Brown and Oberth did a nice work thou on the SaturnV.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the
store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not
pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
they are
breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa
at home
to spend here.
</font>

We have ours in the press. In color. Our defence minister is better than a soap opera. Our foreign minister used to be a protester in 68. Our interior minister defended RAF terrorists. All well known to even the unskilled worker. Besides our chancellor is better than Clinton. Four wives until now. Beat that, Billy Boy

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania
Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old
caboose. Both
are still broke.
</font>

Must have been another planet the guy lifes on. German rail was state owned until recently and now is still mostly. Nothing works and a lot is broken. No US help here unless someone brought stocks in a local rail operator. But that is commonly known as business, not aid. And you do it, to make money or reduce tax load.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of
other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else
raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during
the San Francisco earthquake.
</font>

Start naming. But as for other nations: The french in the revolution. Another try in the war of 1815. German specialists on some mining accidents. Search dogs in Oklahoma IIRC. Most likely a lot of small scale, not talked about help from specialists. The US has only once been attacked by another nation that put troops in the CONUS (1815) and generally has a stable, large infra-structure so they don't need / ask for help. Blindly sending help is useless. One can offer "tell me your needs" but the other side might not need it / believe it does not need it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned
tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing
with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their
nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is
not one of those."

Stand proud, America!
</font>

Few people are gloating. We hope for (no prayers I am an agnostic) those still trapped, mourn for the dead and offer condolescence for those left behind. But that are people, not nations. The US hasn't changed. The US isn't harmed - it's the people that are.

If you consider the US the beacon of civilisation and democracy do so. I don't. They are a nation with faults and problems and everything. As all nations have. They have great moments in history and lousy ones. They are far from perfect.

If you consider US culture the best available, do so. I don't. They have nice elements but so do the europeans. Only, we have more. The US may be younger, more vibrant. But also rough around the edges. They are a rebellious teenager used to getting it's way. One hopes they learn responsibility and social behaviour without more pains.

Besides, flags and nations are so out-dated. Too bad we europeans only get rid of national money on 31/Dec/01, not of the nations too.

Michael.

[Capt.Hunter]

"You look at US technocracy, and you see a man on the moon".

And would that really have happened if you weren't so worried about the Russians beating you to it? My point being, given sufficient incentive, any nation can be ingenious. Hell, as your government keeps telling us till it's blue in the face, Pakistan now has nuclear capability. Russia had a space shuttle (Buran) just as good if not better (bigger payload) than the States, despite lack of money.

Yes, the States has the biggest economy in the world. Yes, you have the big businesses. You have a right to be proud of that. But pride is different from arrogance, and there is a distinct tendency for the US to laud itself above all others which is extremely irritating even to those of us in other developed countries, to say nothing of those in "these places that gloat of the erosion of the dollar".

By the way, the British have told the US during several recent disasters that we had people ready to help with relief efforts. But we don't come unless invited, and so far we've not seen an RSVP.

------------------
"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest

[C5]

Michael,
I agree at 98% with you (the missing 2% are the comment about the French ).
Sehr gut.

[Paul]

Geez...you miss a few days, and get way behind...

Just like to put in my two cents worth: I agree in every way that the terrorists should be caught up with and punished in the fullest ways possible. If that means actively going to war, and hunting them down, then so be it.

I in no way support the actions of the militant few who decide that someone else's way of life is wrong, and should therefore be destroyed. This is precisely the sort of attitude these would-be Followers-of-God accuse the Western World (and the USA in particular) of displaying - and then go ahead and do precisely why they accuse others of doing.

There is no room in this world for people like that. If they can't follow the teachings of their own priests and scriptures (which, I believe, is very similar to the Christian teachings), then they don't deserve to call themselves religious persons; and, for their levels of active violence, don't deserve to be called Human.

I do not pretend to be Worldy, and I know I am far from Godly - but I know I am better than them. I respect life. They should, too.

------------------
"...and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who is this God Person Anyway?"
- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams (dec.)

[Michael Brinkhues]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by C5:
Michael,
I agree at 98% with you (the missing 2% are the comment about the French ).
Sehr gut.</font>

That is our german yealousy. We tried the same with french tourists but too many speak german for it to work.

Michael

[Surak]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by C5:
Michael,
I agree at 98% with you (the missing 2% are the comment about the French ).
Sehr gut.</font>

Despite this horrible incident, this brought a hearty smile across my face. We shouldn`t lose our humor after all.

For Germany`s part:
Today at 10 am CET the whole German country had 5 minutes of silence in rememberance of the dead of this act. Trains stopped, cars were halted by the police: everyone participated. There have been tenthousands of people who went out on the street and placed candles on the ground. There are meetings even now going on and the churches were also full of people praying.

It may sound sarcastic, but there is a good in this attack. All people all over the world are now feeling closer. The governments work closer now and we have grown closer emotionally. This MAY! be the beginning of a new era. From this could grow a new dimension of the term "humanity". I hope that our government shall put aside their pitiful quarrels and reconsider their stands. This could be the birth of an era with a union of most countries against terrorism and later maybe in many years a form of world government.

If there is something like God:

God bless us all!!!

(not just America!)

[Kaiddin]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phantom:
Kaiddin,

On the other thread you posted;

In the City of God there will be a great thunder.
Two brothers torn apart by Chaos.
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning.

Do you happen to know what Century and Quatrain this is?
</font>

After doing some research this was attributed to Nostradamus nearly a century after his death. Art Bell did talk about it last night.

[First of Two]

We have a book with all the quatrains of Nostradamus in it here at the library I work at.

I haven't found this one yet.

Me sniffie hoaxee.

[dimeboy99]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Capt.Hunter:
But pride is different from arrogance, and there is a distinct tendency for the US to laud itself above all others...</font>

If you want to see arrogance, try being an American travelling through European and running into locals with the same prejudices that are being expressed on this board. There is plenty of arrogance to go around on both sides of the Atlantic. Europe has many things to be proud of as well as many things to be ashamed of. So does the U.S. If the United States is the spoiled teenager who is used to getting his way, then Europe would have to be....no....perhaps I won't stoop to this level afterall.

[Michael Brinkhues]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dimeboy99:
If you want to see arrogance, try being an American travelling through European and running into locals with the same prejudices that are being expressed on this board. There is plenty of arrogance to go around on both sides of the Atlantic. Europe has many things to be proud of as well as many things to be ashamed of. So does the U.S. If the United States is the spoiled teenager who is used to getting his way, then Europe would have to be....no....perhaps I won't stoop to this level afterall.</font>

The old fart fixed in his inflexible ways?

Hey, I never claimed that Europe is perfect. All depending on ones Point of View. The teenager just comes in handy as a comparisson when you compare the USA (founded 1776, settled around 1650 AFAIK) with Europe where a lot of persons can visit the place there ancestors lived in the middle ages by walking a few minutes/hours. That's a fact, not arrogance. With 1200+ years of recorded history compared to around 400, we had more chances. I am not comparing Goethe (booooring) with Dale Brown (nice read) or Clive Cussler (even better) and continue to claim that Goethe is superior.

Some things the US political class (not: The individual citizen) did in the last few years (Kyoto treaty, ABM treaty, Attack on Sudan pharmaceutical factory) come of as "I'am the Leroy Brown type here and can do what I want". Well, not every one lives on the South side of Chicago. That's what caused the "spoiled teenager".

The few US citizens I met in person (back in 88 during a REFORGER) where generally nice people. Had some fun with miss-conceptions (A german liberal is totaly diffenrent from the US version) and some nice evenings.

As I said before I diffrentiate between inhabitants (those I judge on a person by person base) and nation (that I judge by politics and behaviour). Every one has the right to do the same (I might even pass the ammo) If I come over as arrogant, well it's just directed at your nation, not you.


Michael

[Calcoran]

On a slightly different topic, I heard on the radio that a bunch of (French) Firemen with 20 (was it 50?) tons of equipment (and search dogs I believe) were about to leave for NYC ...

I do hope it's not too late (they had to wait for the approval from the US as far as I understood). Still, it gave me a warm feeling to hear this.

------------------
Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms)

[Captain Preas]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phantom:
Kaiddin,

On the other thread you posted;

In the City of God there will be a great thunder.
Two brothers torn apart by Chaos.
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning.

Do you happen to know what Century and Quatrain this is?
</font>

Nostradamus did not write this.
It was originally written in a essay titled "Nostradamus: A Critical Analysis", posted to the web at http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm
The author is Neil Marshall, and this "prediction" is part of his presentation of the argument that given a sufficient number of vaguely worded predictions left to rest for a sufficient period of time, a number of them are bound to eventually fit the circumstances of some events.

[Captain Preas]

The "America: The Good Neighbor" was written by Gordon Sinclair in 1973. He died in 1983. He was known to some as "The Canadian Andy Rooney," for those who're familiar with that particular American pundit.

[Keny Suda]

US President Bush in a telephone conference with New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani and New York Gov. George Pataki.

"And as we do so, I urge -- I know I don't need to tell you all this -- but our nation must be mindful that there are thousands of Arab-Americans who live in New York City, who love their flag just as much as the three of us do, and we must be mindful that as we seek to win the war that we treat Arab-Americans and Muslims with the respect they deserve. I know that is your attitude as well -- certainly the attitude of this government: that we should not hold one who is a Muslim responsible for an act of terror."

With no further comment beside that I may have to rethink about my (former) attitude towards a certain head of state.