[IF]
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!
What worries me about this is one of your ex-State Department guys on Brit TV last night saying "We need to go round each country and ask if they are on our side against terrorism or against us". Us and Them mentality? I agree the scum (I was about to use the word "people", but they don't deserve the title) who did this should pay - with their lives. I've always disagreed with America's stance on the death penalty, as for one it doesn't work as a deterrent, and as another all it does is leave the perp's family feeling as bereaved as your own. In this case, there is no other option. There are some acts so repugnant and irredeemable that those who commit them must die. However, I would not support the mass bombing of a nation to get at these people. Yes, there are factions in Afghanistan who think Bin Laden is a hero, and who hide him. There are also many who have probably no idea who he is. When you find out who did this, do you kill as many innocents to get them as they did hitting the WTC? Then you are just as guilty, and I for one will not support you. I will offer my support in surgical strikes to remove these people and their backers. I will support efforts to change the political climate so they are forced out (and I mean sensible efforts, not ramming a gun down Palestine's throat and telling them it's your way or else).
So, if the US takes an action I find morally wrong - am I against you? Am I the enemy? Someone on the last thread said that the US was willing to count anyone who got in the way of their revenge against Japan after Pearl Harbour as the enemy. I know you're hurting badly, but I won't condone wholesale slaughter of innocents to get at the perpetrators. That makes me no better than them. Let's do this as cold, calculating vengeance - and show the terrorists we can make them pay without sinking to their level. If there's one thing the conflict in Ireland has taught Brits, it's that indiscriminate vengeance just feeds the cycle of hatred. Once you get to that place, you may never get out (just look at the problems Ireland is still having today, even after peace accords were signed).
Sorry, this post rambled a tad. I hope my words haven't offended anyone from the States, because I know feelings are running high there right now. However, I hope after taking a deep breath you can see the logic in what I've said.
------------------
"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest
BTW, I've been reading these posts carefully and noticed Steve Long hasn't shown up here - Steve, could you please let us know if you're OK? Having testread a few of the SRMs I find you one of the most sensible and intelligent people I've ever (virtually) met - please tell us you're alright?
------------------
"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest
As a nurse, I absolutely dread to think about what victims have been through, and what the emergency services had to contend with.
I just can't believe this has happened. But enough is enough. Something needs to be done to stop all these damn terrorists. I just wish I knew what it was.
I hope no one here has suffered directly through this disaster, and you guys are all alright.
------------------
Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-74600, U.S.S. Intrepid Star Trek: Intrepid
Hunter, you have elegantly summed up how I believe we should retaliate. There are too many people here that feel the Middle East should become a parking lot, or the world’s biggest sand trap, but small singular targets would bring us back from the chaos most are feeling. On a more personal note, the punishment of the individuals responsible should not be a quick thing, let them live long lives, dead men learn nothing.
Phoenix...
------------------
The more you disapprove,
The more fun it is for me.
[We will make no distinction between those who committed this act and those nations who harbor them.]
Surgical strikes, please, wake up we have tried that and found we either hit the wrong target, miss altogether or do little damage. In general the people want this threat delt with in a manner which is final and not temporary. Do you think the US governments wants to just lob a couple cruise missiles or laser guided bombs and say we have our retribution? The enemy is Terrorism and those nations who have continued over thirty years to support it, Syria, Libya, Iraqi Afganistan, and even though they have subsided there efforts in recent years Iran. not only have these nation supported Arab Terrorism but groups as diverse as Shining Path and the Red Army Faction they have showed a calous disregard for the world and its law they have protected, equiped and trained madmen who have killed thousands in small attacks and have planned larger attacks which we will never know of because they lost their nerve. I don't care what group did this, the situation was created by the fact we have allowed Terrorism to continue and as long as we do this will repeat and repeat until there is no end in sight.
This is war, and in war the innocent die becuase of the decision of there government. There were plenty of good peace loving Germans, Italians and Japanese in WWII who suffered because of the decisions of their governments, but governments as Dan said so well are from their people, no matter what they stay in power because as a whole the people either do nothing or choose to support it.
As shown by the government of Iraqi they have and continue to have no respect for life. These are not nations of civilized laws and civilized manners they are tyrants and bands of brigands and they have remained in power because in same way their people have choose to support them and allow them to continue. There is no government on Earth that exist without the consent of its people be it democratic or tolitarian. These governments have supported terrorism and have put their people at risk for attack therefore I lose little sleep at the prospect of their casualties.
We have offered friendship and have been stabbed in the back by these people, We have been told we should understand there position while they refuse to understand ours, they killed because of the simple fact we support a nation or concept that is totaly alien to them. It is them and not us who have showed intolerance, and hatred and have never truely understood the teaching which they falsely profess to understand and in the end they have choosen by there acts and attitude to be my enemy and not I.
There fore let them truely reap the whirlwind and no just ceacuse you disagree with me does not make you mt enemy, a civilized human being will pick up the pen or tap on the keyboard to show his difference and not resot to the gun, bomb and sword. They have for over thrity year done so we have tryed to combat with both the pen and the sword but now it is time to drop the pen and arm the other hand with the sword.
Like in law situation if you give aid, comfort or harbor a criminal you become part of the crime, that is a tenant of western law. If these nations do so, why is it so hard to accept that they by the actions of either nothing or openness, support these actions and therfore they become guilty as while. Islm and Mohammed gave so much to the world, beauty in art and architure, verse, and another true word of the one, but yet why do those who profess to be its "true" prophets bring death, destruction and hatred to the world, what legacy, what image is this to give the world of a great religion, culture and people.
Cochran, Georgia, USA, Sol III, Alpha Quadrant, Milky Way Galaxy
Posts
455
If you really want to discourage a country from harboring these terrorists we have to make it not worth it. We know where some terrorists are already, let's start with them. Let's get them all. We have people who have the tools and the talent to bring their lives to an abrupt and violent end. If they want to be martyrs... let them. We'll personally send them on their way to see Allah. You can't do this with high tech missiles. This will require men to go into harm's way to do this with any certainty.
------------------
"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"
Like Christianity, there are many denominations of Islam. The Taliban of Afghanistan practices the most extreme form of Islamic movement. But I rather leave religion aside.
This is a political matter as well as criminal. So far we have not called a declaration of war against any country yet, not until we have the concrete evidence that they are responsible. Forgive me for being Vulcan, but considering that this is a well-coordinated tactical assault against capitalism and our seat of government, the multimillionaire Osama Bin Laden may have higher help.
But with all due respect, we may have been at fault as well. How they managed to get past airport security, particularly the airport in Boston, is also something that stuck behind my mind. (Next to "Whodunit? Bin Laden? Gotta Be.")
What is also sickening is the fact those suicide terrorists are trained pilots rumored to have had initial training in a flight school in Indiana(?) or some other parts in the US.
I'm still praying for survivors, especially those who managed to call via cell phone. I hope the rescuers get to them in time.
If there are two good things that come out of this it would be: (1) that NY and America will overcome this disastrous, horrendous attack, and (2) what is deemed as a heroic sacrificial act by the passengers of the airline that crashed at Pittsburgh to stop the terrorists from using their plane as a weapon targeted for the White House. Two planes were to hit the White House, one fell short and hit a part of the Pentagon instead ... at least according to the news.
A few topics to cover here.
First, I generally recognize the need to preserve basic human rights. That said, I do have this urge to kill anyone who I think was involved in this, and maybe anyone who looks like them. So, moderating insane rage with intellect I get .....
Whoever did this must be convinced that this was NOT a GOOD plan. They must be made to never want to do anything remotely like this again. And they must be made an example to deter others who might do something like this in the future.
My first thought was the Palestinians did this, but I have no basis, just a hunch. I realized right away that most folks said it must have been the arabs when the federal building in Oklahoma City was bombed. So, we should hold off.
of course, since then I've heard that the governmebt has evidence linking Osama bin Laden's followers to this.
AFAIK, bin Laden himself has not denied this. The Taliban government of Afganistan has said that he could not have done this.
And to Angry Cartman, I have read "By Way Of Deception". I agree that, in theory, the Mossad might have done this to turn us against the Palestineans. HOWEVER, they are also smart enough to know that we would bomb Israel into the stone age if we ever found out. THEREFORE, I doubt that they would ever risk it. They are not evil, stupid, or suicidal; they simply always put what is (in their opinion) best for Israel first. And even Ostroffsky admits that the Mossad does not consider pissing off the US to be in the best interests of Israel.
------------------
You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
As many of the congressmen and women have said today during session, America is calling for the punishment of those that carried out/supported this horrible act but a rush to judgement isn't going to happen. It could take months for any military action in this war to come to pass. My non-American friends, thinking that us yanks are going to carpet-bomb civilians is the wrong assumption. Thinking that America is blind with rage and will strike without regard at the innocent is the wrong assumption. Regardless of the reputation we seem to carry, we are indeed a thoughtful people who cherish life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. I was glad to see the sheer number of statements from the nations of the world decrying this terror, offering assistance and making a pledge to stand up as one against those that use terror as a political tool. This, in our darkest hour, is also a fine hour for humanity as a whole. I'm proud of my people, meaning the citizens of the US and the citizens of the world. There is hope for humanity yet.
I peruse other message boards, similar to our own, and I see people who know each other advocating different stances. Some non-aggression, some measured responses, some assassination or military action, others outright genocide against persons of a specific ethnic and religious persuasion.
What is quickly happening in these ‘discussions’ are people who know each other now locked in a verbal debate of morals, responsibility, and vengeance.
Friends turned against friends. Harsh words spoken. Lines being drawn and sides taken.
Whose cause do you think this serves?
After this is all said and done (never forgotten), months or years from now, these comments will also linger and have a lasting effect. One of the great weapons of terrorism is turning people against people, eliciting a feeling of vulnerability and anger, all the while hiding in the shadows.
Forgive me for painting a picture of a worst case scenario that thankfully has not happened yet on TrekRPGNet. However, as I said, I’m seeing it on other discussion boards all over and I would continue to caution our members to discuss and post in a responsible manner.
In preserving everyone’s ability to use these boards we are also vulnerable to individuals registering and posting with anonymity—making their comments and hiding behind a pseudonym. Please temper your own comments accordingly.
On the Day After, I am just as horrified as I was on the Day. I am outraged that people would do this thing, though I am not all that surprised. Unlike many, I have no illusion of security. I know that no country is immune from history.
Bin Ladin and company are terrorists. We should not be surprised when they act like terrorists. We need to find them and eliminate them, not only for vengeance, but because they will merely keep on killing until they are eliminated.
However, when I looked at the internet boards last night, about every fourth American poster said something like: "Sand Niggers suck; they are an inferior race; we will build camps; we will kill them all; I will kill one tonight". Forgive the racial epithet, but I must have read it a hundred times.
We don't need that kind of stupidity. It is unworthy of us, and an insult to all those who died to rid the world of Nazi and Japanese concentration camps in World War II, and Soviet gulags in the Cold War.
Right now what we need is the cold ferocity to get those responsible, and, yes, those who harbor them. We need the vision and leadership to build a world in which this sort of thing will be impossible, but in which all peoples' rights are protected.
In the end we are either the heirs of Washington and Lincoln, or we are just the Roman mob, howling for blood. The whole world needs us to be the former and not the latter.
------------------
Slan agat!
[This message has been edited by Aedh Rua (edited 09-12-2001).]
Sorry to have given the impression that I think all Americans are warmongers. I know a great many of you are intelligent, humane people. I'm just a little worried that, if this turns into a war, America will go the distance - if you want to eliminate the possibility of a nation producing terrorists, you may well have to wipe them out totally or the survivors will hate you so much the problem never goes away. That's a cold truth, I just hope we can see it and realize that a full-scale offensive against these nations is not a solution unless we want genocide on our conscience. I'm sure the retaliation that comes will be more sensible.
Whew! Seems impossible to post here and not get caught up in this. I only logged on to reply to my previous post and say that yes - the almighty Steve Long is OK (he's rather sensibly keeping out of this whole discussion until it calms down).
------------------
"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest
Moderator
America's Loss
Posting Permissions
