America's Loss

[dimeboy99]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Keny Suda:
US President Bush in a telephone conference with New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani and New York Gov. George Pataki.

"And as we do so, I urge -- I know I don't need to tell you all this -- but our nation must be mindful that there are thousands of Arab-Americans who live in New York City, who love their flag just as much as the three of us do, and we must be mindful that as we seek to win the war that we treat Arab-Americans and Muslims with the respect they deserve. I know that is your attitude as well -- certainly the attitude of this government: that we should not hold one who is a Muslim responsible for an act of terror."

With no further comment beside that I may have to rethink about my (former) attitude towards a certain head of state.</font>

Don't believe the hype, guys and gals, about the Conservative politicians (and people) of America. We're not racists, bigots, sexists or morons as a whole. (sure we have our lunatic fringe who are all of the above, as do the Liberals.) I myself am a conservative who comes from a racially mixed family and who has friends of several creeds and colors. I'm active in the Republican party, have conservative (and liberal) friends and have yet to meet an extremist even though we tend to all be painted as extreme.

I am very glad that President Bush has said this regarding the Arab-Americans as a people. Now is not the time for racial paranioia to take hold of this nation. As radio-personality Dr. Laura said today (and I'm paraphrasing) "Punish the guilty, not the innocent. Hurting somebody that is different than you in retaliation is immoral, inexcusible and unamerican. Having had it happen to my own religion for centuries (she's Jewish)I won't stand for any people to be persecuted in that way." I agree completely. Cooler heads must prevail and the fringe goof-balls need to go back to watching pro wrestling.

[Kaiddin]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Preas:
The "America: The Good Neighbor" was written by Gordon Sinclair in 1973. He died in 1983. He was known to some as "The Canadian Andy Rooney," for those who're familiar with that particular American pundit.</font>

Wow! I know some Canadians that did not know who GS was.

[Phantom]

I was beginning to wonder, I didn't remember seeing that Quatrain in the book I have.

------------------
In the Praetors Name!

[Keny Suda]

dimeboy99


I never ment to say, that the Conservatives are racists.
It's just that I was somehow impressed by Bush's words. I didn't expect such reasonable words because of some of his former statements.

[Capt.Hunter]

I'd like to second Michael's words. If I came across as condemning America, I apologize. I too make a distinction between individuals and governments. Heck, my own government (whether this or the last) has made some decisions I find questionable. I saw one American representative on a political debate show last night being "deeply hurt and saddened" that, just 48 hours after the event, resentment of the American people was coming out (a lot of the points I and Michael have raised were brought up, only in not such civilized language). Please understand, it is not the American people that this resentment is directed at, but the actions of your government. As was pointed out last night, America and the world must find and punish those responsible for this attack, but governments whose countries are targets for terrorism (and I include my own in this) also must look at why they are targets. Political terrorism always has a reason. Usually it is not an irrational one. If there are things we can do to improve relationships between nations so that these fanatics have no excuse, then we must do them.

By the way, the most sensible thing I heard on this debate was said by one of the youngest members of the audience (he was about 20) - we need to be very careful that this issue does not turn religion against religion or culture against culture. As he correctly pointed out, it was in danger of happening in that very room as people said the Moslems should bow down and thank America for all it had done, and the Moslems pointed out some of the questionable things it had done.

This has been one of the worst tragedies in recent history. We need to make sure that internal conflict, pride and name-calling don't create a worse one.

------------------
"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest

[REG]

I understand you may disagree with our government's foreign policies. As a US citizen, I too expressed my criticisms with some of them ... including getting involved in the Middle East Peace Process. Of course, right now, I am totally behind US President Bush with regards to terrorism being an act of war against us.

All I ask that you choose your words lightly. As I have said many times before, our emotions are running high right now. Perhaps we have not gotten over the shock yet. You can choose to express any criticisms about us but do so in a diplomatic fashion, not in a tone which may be misconstrued as an attack.

I know my country isn't perfect, but to me personally it's the best country that I'm glad to be born in.

------------------
Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[Calcoran]

I just noticed something ... disturbing ... just bear with me for a second:

As Michael and Capt. Hunter very sensibly pointed out, American people often suffer from the resentment that has been caused by the actions of their government. Either because those people misinterpret what is being said against their government and take it for them personally, or (more often) because those expressing resentment are not clever enough to make a difference between a government and its people (for them, "the US government has made something [insert negative qualifier], therefore all US citizens are [ditto]").

Now I can't recall how often I heard, on these boards, on IRC, and so on, that people who (had the misfortune to) live in countries whose government supported terrorism only had what they deserved if the US decided to wage war on them.

Makes one think, doesn't it?

[This message has been edited by Calcoran (edited 09-14-2001).]

[Legate Legion]

Let there be no mistake. The crimes of the United States of America are great and unforgiveable. Look at the record:

1. The United States of America is guilty of the greatest measure of economic freedom ever promulgated in the history of the world.

2. As a direct result of the first crime, the United States of America is guilty of the highest degree of personal prosperity over the longest period of time in the history of the world. This is a direct affront to the over-managed economies of the world who operate so inefficiently they cannot feed their populations.

3. The United States is guilty of promoting religious freedom. This crime weighs heavily on all those nations and peoples who know without question what the One True Faith for all mankind must be.

4. The United States is guilty of promoting political freedom. This is an outrage to those nations whose proper regard for law and order requires that they properly arrest, torture and execute those who question the wisdom of their governments.

5. The United States is guilty of promoting equality among all citizens. Women in the US are actually allowed to appear in public without covering themselves from head to toe as all moral societies require. This insane policy actually extends so far as to allow women to divorce their husbands in violation of the law of every True God and even to own property in their own names.

6. The United States is guilty of sending aid to any nation that needs it and will accept it from us. This undermines the stability of legitimate governments whose authority rests on the poverty and powerlessness of their citizens.

7. The United States is guilty of holding a policy of conducting public business in the open light of public scrutiny and to insist on the unnatural and immoral idea that the government is responsible to its citizens rather than the other way around, which is the obvious natural order.

It might be offered in mitigation of these grievous faults that the United States of America has often failed to one degree or another in this perfidious program of enlightening the world. But let the record show that no matter how clumsily at times, no matter how imperfectly, the government and people of the United States have steadfastly proclaimed their intention of pursuing these subversive ends without remorse or contrition.

Let the United States of America be judged before the bar of world opinion as a dangerous example of radical politics and uncontrolled idealism.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I got this off a mailing list & thought I would share it with you. Read it for what it is worth & think about it, it could apply to any Western Nation in point of fact.

~LL

------------------
"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. " - Sir Winston Churchill

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_13th_Fleet_Starfleet_Academy
http://www.haz-matt.com/13thfleet/

[Calcoran]

He he he ... this one was good ... if a bit sarcastic.
Actually, I guess no-one was referring to those ... but you are right, in the eyes of those rabid fanatics, good deeds can indeed be described as sins or crimes .

[dimeboy99]

I apologize to all my European friends if I've taken anything that has been said personally. For me it's 2-fold: I'm upset over what happened this week and I'm a patriotic American who sometimes posts before he thinks.



I've always wondered, how much international press is part of the average European news broadcast? I'd assume quite alot considering the sheer number of nations on the continent. I for one cannot say that I can disagree or take issue with France, Germany, England, etc. (their people or their government) simply because they aren't in the headlines or on the news here in the States.



I can tell you that I'm proud to be an American and I'll take the good with the bad. Considering the diversity of people, culture and geography within the United States, I cannot imagine wanting to raise my children anywhere else. I'm proud that we are a young nation founded primarially by the tired, dispossed, persecuted and unwanted from around the world. (My family falls into all of the above categories when they fled Europe) I think we've done a pretty good job considering we're a bunch of cast-offs.



I teach my son about the culture he lives in as well as the cultures he is decended from and we're equally proud of both. (Or I should say "all" instead of "both". My son is truely a melting pot of nations)

[Michael Brinkhues]

News from the US (german view):

Quite a lot (CNN is on satellite over here in germany) and TIME is readily available even in small rural communities.

For us the US is important (Wallstreet and Whitehouse mostly) so they feature in our local newspapers. Depending on which you took from Hurray Amerika (Bild[1]) to Let's see what this means and remain a bit sceptical (SPIEGEL[2]) or It's American, we must be sceptical for no good comes from there (Berlin TAZ[3])


Side question: With all the "systems" discussion going on, what about a threat where each nation outlines it's political system (two view each minimum if possible) to minimize problems. For example a german "Liberal" is a member of the FDP, a party that caters for self-employeed engineers, small businessman, doctors etc. while a US "Liberal" is close to a communist IIRC[4]


Michael


[1] aka BLÖD (dumb), BLUT (Blood) or "Völkischer Beobachter Western Issue" (Eastern Issue was GDR's Neues Deutschland). A yellow press publication printed daily (30mil+) despite nobody reading it using big letters and short sentenced. (I also happen to find a copy in my car every morning. One day I find the guy that delivers it)

[2] SPIEGEL is a weekly magazin known for got research and background information. Closer to the social democrats (current ruling party similar to New Labor currently ) than to the CDU/CSU (Kohl) or (gasp!) the FDP (Westerwelle)

[3] Left wing publication when I last (5+ years ago) read it.

[4] At least from the looks of the US PFC I shared Guard duty with. Me (armed with Battle rifle, armored etc): "I am a liberal" He: Took three steps back, moved hand to pistol, slightly panicked look

[This message has been edited by Michael Brinkhues (edited 09-17-2001).]

[Capt.Hunter]

And hell, if you're a Liberal over here (I mean in terms of ideology, not the Liberal Democrat political party) it generally means that you favour each person's right to live life the way they want to as long as it harms no-one else. So equal rights (including marriage) for homosexuals, recognizing that unmarried couples are not inherently a less stable environment for kids to be brought up in than married couples, etcetera. And I'm firmly a believer on those issues. I may not be homosexual myself, but then I don't smoke either, and I've never told anyone that it is wrong to smoke - it's their choice.

------------------
"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest

[Sevekk]

I got sent this just a little while ago, I thought I would share.

An open letter to a terrorist:

Well, you hit the World Trade Center, but you missed America. You hit the Pentagon, but you missed America. You used helpless American bodies, to take out other American bodies, but like a poor marksman, you STILL missed America.

Why?

Because of something you guys will never understand.

America isn't about a building or two, not about financial centers, not about military centers, America isn't about a place, America isn't even about a bunch of bodies. America is about an IDEA.

An idea, that you can go someplace where you can earn as much as you can figure out how to, live for the most part, like you envisioned living, and pursue Happiness. (No
guarantees that you'll reach it, but you can sure try!)

Go ahead and whine your terrorist whine, and chant your terrorist litany:

"If you can not see my point, then feel my pain."
This concept is alien to Americans. We live in a country where we don't have to see your point. But you're free to have one. We don't have to listen to your speech. But you're free to say one. Don't know where you got the strange idea that everyone has to agree with you. We don't agree with each other in
this country, almost as a matter of pride. We're a collection of people that don't agree, called States. We united our individual states to protect ourselves from
tyranny in the world. Another idea, we made up on the spot. You CAN make it up as you go, when it's your country.

If you're free enough.

Yeah, we're fat, sloppy, easy-going goofs most of the time.

That's an unfortunate image to project to the world, but it comes of feeling free and easy about the world you live in. It's unfortunate too, because people start to forget that when you attack Americans, they tend to fight like a cornered badger. The first we knew of the War of 1812, was when
England burned Washington D.C. to the ground. Didn't turn out like England thought it was going to, and it's not going to turn out like you think, either.

Sorry, but you're not the first bully on our shores, just the most recent.

No Marquis of Queensbury rules for Americans, either. We were the FIRST and
so far, only country in the world to use nuclear weapons in anger.

Horrific idea, nowadays? News for you bucko, it was back then too, but we
used it anyway. Only had two of them in the whole world and we used them both. Grandpa Jones worked on the Manhattan Project.
Told me once, that right up until they threw the switch, the physicists were still arguing over whether the Uranium alone would fission, or whether it would start a fission chain reaction that would eat everything. But they threw the switch anyway, because we had a War to win. Does that tell you something about American Resolve?

So who just declared War on us? It would be nice to point to some real estate, like the good old days. Unfortunately, we're probably at war with random camps, in far-flung places. Who think they're safe. Just like the Barbary Pirates did, IIRC.. Better start sleeping with one eye open.

There's a spirit that tends to take over people who come to this country, looking for opportunity, looking for liberty, looking for freedom. Even if they misuse it. The Marielistas that Castro emptied out of his prisons, were overjoyed to find out how much freedom there was. First thing they did when they hit our shores, was run out and buy guns.

The ones that didn't end up dead, ended up in prisons. It was a big PITA then (especially in south Florida), but you're only the newest PITA, not the first.

You guys seem to be incapable of understanding that we don't live in America, America lives in US! American Spirit is what it's called. And killing a few thousand of us, or a few million of us, won't change it.

Most of the time, it's a pretty happy-go-lucky kind of Spirit. Until we're crossed in a cowardly manner, then it becomes an entirely different kind of Spirit.

Wait until you see what we do with that Spirit, this time.

Sleep tight, if you can. We're coming.

Charles Brennan, Author

[Phantom]

I agree with each and point. Except of course the references to the War 1812, IIRC the War started when the US tried to invade Canada (I could be wrong, I will have to look it up.) He was right about the burning of the Whitehouse though. Sorry guys.

------------------
In the Praetors Name!

[Karg]

Well, Guys

Been whatching F-16's and F-18's flying overhead as the President was coming into NY

I cant tell you what a sight that is

These Terrorists Have awoken a Sleeping Giant

Karg