America's Loss

[Phantom]

Well guys I just wanted to inform you that 75 000+ Canadians gathered on Parliament Hill in Ottawa today for our National Day of Mourning for those who were touched by that dreadful act of terrorism on Tuesday. I was unable to attend, as I had class and work today, but the University observed, as most of Canada did, 3 minutes of silence. And quite a few, including my household, were flying American Flags today. In fact it is my understanding that flag stores in the Ottawa area couldn't keep the USofA flags on the shelves. I think it is a good example of how we grieve and stand with you in these trying days.

Also, I was informed today the total Canadian dead has reached 500. This truly is an international disaster.

Long may our flags stand together.



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In the Praetors Name!

[Phantom]

On lighter note, I found it amusing anyway. A passer-by at the American Embassy in Ottawa apparently made light of what happened in the states...He was escorted away by two police officers in cuffs for his trouble. Don't know what he said, but it must have been a whopper. What a loser.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Sho-sa Kurita]

I'm way behind here. I had an uncle injured at the Pentagon, and two of my girfriend's school chums worked for Morgan Stanley at the WTC and are unnaccounted for.

To the Canadians here -- I didn't know so many of your citizens were caught up in this. It's too bad non-Americans got entangled in this. Support is all the more appreciated when it comes from someone who has also been hurt.

To all other non-Americans -- we do appreciate your kindness. Thank you.

The War of 1812 -- I've often wondered what would have happened if Napolean hadn't been kicking up a ruckus at the same time...

American arrogance -- unfortunately a lot of US citizens (that I know, anyway) are appallingly uneducated/uninformed where history and current affairs are concerned. There are many reasons for this that aren't worth going into right now.

To make a return to the subject of America's current leaders. Think (or re-think) what you will of George W, but he was smart enough to ask Colin Powell to be Sec. of State. I'm personally very glad to have that man in that position -- he's all about cool heads and measured reaction. He doesn't start anything without a plan for how to finish or get out of it. This was one of his reasons for getting out of the Clinton administration -- too much fuzziness and political wavering.

Can't remember what else I was going to comment on, so I'll stop for now.

- Daniel

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-- "Hey brother! Ready for another dose of my Yankee pride?"

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[The Tatterdemalion King]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by StyroFoam Man:
You are sick. Very sick. Nothing justifies killing on this scale.

Very very sick.

When someone plans the death of thousands, they are subhuman.
</quote>
How does this happen? When the death toll reaches a certain number, does Horus come down out of the sky and pluck the soul out of the person who did it? And if they did, whould the subhuman creatures be inhuman, and therefore innocent, like, say a dog? Can you declare war on canines?

</quote>
Those who carry out thier plans are too.

What, pray tell in your mind justifies this?

Please enlighten us!

I'm not going to say anything else because I don't want to get banned...

Which is what should happen to you.

</font>

I said it might be justified. I personally don't think it could have been, but hey, I'm not omniscient.



[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-15-2001).]

[Publius]

I am horrified by that statement Huth, horrified and speechless. When I look at this with detatched eyes all I see are terrorists who have ended the lives of thousands of other people because (if it is tracked down to Osama Bin Laden and this is not entirely certain by this point) they don't like our government's policies. Some have suggested that the very presence of western culture is seen by these groups as a kind of disease that they are fighting against. In the cold light of day that is amazingly self-centered and this horrific act is by its very definition inhumane. Human beings commit acts of depravity unknown to other species, to ourselves and our environment, but this does not instill in me sympathy.

I have seen others skirt this sort of thing above, by stating here on a thread that deals with a massive loss of American lives that our system of government is not to their liking, but I have tried to ignore it. I have seen worse that what has been said previously, and on any other thread what was said would not be inappropriate. On one BBS-style board for the HERO system website, another foreigner implied we Americans are no better than Nazis so American-bashing is a phenomenon not limited to this discussion by any means and much more abhorent statements have been made elsewhere that were not made here. In my own opinion, other nationals like to take potshots at us Americans, and apparently this seems to be a good time to hit us in more ways than one. You however seem to be suggesting that thousands of innocent Americans deserved to die, which is the only way I can take something like implying there was a 'justification' in the terrotists for these acts. A justification is simply an excuse, and we cannot excuse this act. You will undoubtably claim that this is not the case, but when you say something is justified you are acknowledging the fruits of that act as legitimate. That is to me beyod the pale. Someone here has said that Canadians also died in large numbers, I suppose that means you feel this way about your own nationals, I find this maybe even more strange and bizzare.

This is a mind-numbing statement which I as an American citizen, as a human being living on planet Earth, cannot abide. I am trying not to make any personal comments here out of respect for the owner of the board but I think that this makes my feelings known. I will go back to trying to be silent on this thread, my own opinions are too embroiled in anger at the moment, and I think I will try to ignore this thread for a while because I am just sick and hurt and not feeling the same way about being here that I once did. Once I was proud because of the content here, now I am sick.

Remember New York.
Remember the Pentagon.
Remember the fallen and those who unselfishly tried to help them only to became victims themselves.

[Weyoun11]

Furthermore as a Canadian citizen, I was appalled when a TD bank in TO had "Capitalists deserve what they get" spray painted above it. A--holes. They should be ashamed to live here whoever or whatever creed they were from. The attack on Tuesday had victims from many nations, INNOCENT Muslims included. The Toronto Sun had listed that as many as 500 Canadians could have been killed. This is truly an act of war against all peoples.
Even though we must urge restraint and protect our friendly Muslim/Islam communities
all over North America those cultures must also understand that there are extremists amongst their ranks, possible terrorists, amd their HELP is greatly needed to expose those they may know harbor such ill will toward the western world. Their extremist ways are an act of high treason and they are not welcome here.
These acts the past dark Tuesday were committed by Islam's version of "rednecks" and we must not let our own version of rednecks like the Timothy McVeigh's of our society lash out against innocent people who stand for the same ideals we all cherish and hold dear lest we become no better than the terrorists themselves.

"When you attacked the USS Malinche you proved one thing; that the Maquis have become an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation." --Cpt. Sisko ("For The Uniform")


[This message has been edited by Weyoun11 (edited 09-15-2001).]

[The Tatterdemalion King]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Publius:
I am horrified by that statement Huth, horrified and speechless. When I look at this with detatched eyes all I see are terrorists who have ended the lives of thousands of other people because (if it is tracked down to Osama Bin Laden and this is not entirely certain by this point) they don't like our government's policies. Some have suggested that the very presence of western culture is seen by these groups as a kind of disease that they are fighting against. In the cold light of day that is amazingly self-centered and this horrific act is by its very definition inhumane. Human beings commit acts of depravity unknown to other species, to ourselves and our environment, but this does not instill in me sympathy.
</QUOTE>

Then what does instill in you sympathy? I have sympathy for those who did this, the same kind of sympathy for those who want to take revenge.
What appalls me is how everyone keeps referring to the terrorists as inhuman/subhuman. They are as human as you or I, and, I think, should be treated accordingly.
[/b]</font>

[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-15-2001).]

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I would like to apologize, with deep regret, before this gets out of hand, to the people I have offended, and to those who have died that I may have dishonoured with my statement.
What I was trying to say got massively skewed when I wrote it down.
What I was trying to say is that these terrorist are people too. They have done a abominable thing. But they (the ones still alive) are still human, and...

*sigh* Sorry.

[dimeboy99]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by C. Huth:
I, actually, have sympathy for these terrorists. I, in fact, have some respect for these people who gave their lives trying to hurt this sleeping dragon.
</font>

I couldn't disagree more, Huth. You won't be banned from this board for having an opinion, but do expect counter-points.

How could anyone respect an group of people that board a plane with the plan to crash it into a heavily-populated city, look into the eyes of the 2-year old child that is sitting on his mothers lap and still think these people deserve respect? What did that child do that would make you want to respect her killer? How can any mass murderer be respected? Pitied, yes. But respected? This attack was an action based on a political agenda, not on religion (save for a misguided interperation of what Islam teaches) No, these people do not deserve respect.

As for the attack not being like Pearl Harbor, lets not forget that the United States was at peace when that happened. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened during a time of war and the reasons that the bombings happened are very complex and were intended, in the end, to save Allied lives when Japan refused to unconditional surrender. A great history of the decision and history can be found at http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm
As long as this terrorist attack is being likened to the actions of 60 years ago, lets not limit the history of WWII brutality to the bombings of Japan. You've got the Holocaust, the firebombing of Dresden, the rape of Nanking, the rape of Berlin, the bombing of London, the decision to protect the ENIGMA code cracking by allowing the bombing of Coventry, the bombing of Hamburg, the Japanese germ war testing program, the internment of Japanese civilians in America...the list goes on and on and on. Take your pick on which sin is the greatest. In my mind, they're all sins. Thankfully we seem to have learned from the brutality of the past. The concience of the 1st world no longer sees the killing of civialians as a military objective but rather as something to be avoided. Iraq knew this when they surrounded key installations with human shields, playing upon the humanity of the West. We abhore the loss of innocent life. Those that you respect see this as a weakness and use it in their acts of terrorism. I see it as our greatest strength.



[This message has been edited by dimeboy99 (edited 09-15-2001).]

[Jonathan Talbot]

Huth, I for one understood what it was you are tryinh to say, and I do Except youe apology.

At this moment I am reminded of a Catoon Character from WWII (I think.) his name was POGO. In one of his skits he is in a GI's uniform and he is looking out at the enemy and is qouted as saying. " We have met the Enemy and they are us."

Folks what is going to happen here in the next couple of weeks, months or Years is not a War of Good or Evil as Mr. Bush said, But a War of Ideas, that will be fought with Blood and Guts. The Individual who carried out this act and Died in those PLanes considered themselves Soldiers fighting a War against an Implacaple enemy. MOst of us have never known such a fight, now our Grandfathers Did, when they Fought against the Axis in WWII. Those individuals died doing what they thought was an Honorable act for the greater Glory of their People. Even thought most of their people right now are mourning along side us.

We must remeber this when we do go to War, that they are the enemy, they are deserving of Respect under the Geneva Convention. THey must be mad to see, that a few raving mad men have turned their heads and have filled them with this hatered and anger. Thought this types of people have Killed Civilians. We must not. I remeber the Achille Loral Hijacking, where they killed an old man ina wheel chair. These people will fall and fall hard.

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Jonathan Talbot.
Medical Officer
"First Away Team Mission... Beaming down to a Hostile Planet... Captain Kirk is leading the Away Team... I am wearing a red shirt... No Fear!!! Unknown Crew Member

[This message has been edited by Jonathan Talbot (edited 09-15-2001).]

[The Tatterdemalion King]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dimeboy99:

How could anyone respect an group of people that board a plane with the plan to crash it into a heavily-populated city, look into the eyes of the 2-year old child that is sitting on his mothers lap and still think these people deserve respect?</font>

My choice of the word 'respect' ws probably the biggest mistake I made there. What, essentially, I was saying in that one sentance, is that the people who did this planned and executed it very well. Was it morally right? I seriously doubt it, but I, and no other human being on earth, has the capability to judge that. 'Respect' in this case, meant 'admiration for the skill involved.' And, yes, that is probably not a good thing to think.

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[Lancer]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by C. Huth:
What appalls me is how everyone keeps referring to the terrorists as inhuman/subhuman. They are as human as you or I, and, I think, should be treated accordingly.
</font>

I think this is a very valid point, that I would like to elaborate on:

Whoever is behind this horrible attack is still a human being.
We may call them rabid animals or worse, but we should not treat them as such. After all, how do you deal with a rabid dog? You shoot it or kill it in any other way that is convenient at the moment.
Could the same be done with those terrorists? "Yes of course" many of you will say and saying so is certainly your right, since freedom of speech is one of the cornerstones of our social systems here in the so-called "first world".

But another of those cornerstones is our law, be it in America, Canada, France or here in Germany. The laws we make are certainly not without their flaws and shortcomings, but that is the case with almost anything mankind does. Still many of us believe that our laws are good and just and while this is not always the case we are glad that our legal systems insure us of the right to a fair process and court procedures that apply to everbody the same way, regardless of their descent, wealth or education.

I for one believe that the same laws should be applied to anybody, however horrendous their crimes might have been. IMO nobody should be just shot (or "nuked") without a trial.

If you now cry out "but they killed 10.000 innocents", then my answer would be to ask you in turn where you would draw the line. How many dead does it take for us to ignore the laws we otherwise hold as fair and just in the pursuit of a criminal?
If we want to truely protect the free and democratic system we all live in such a number must never exist!
If we start to apply the principals and values our societies are based upon selectivly to some, but not to all humans, how can these values hold any real meaning?

So I say, try to apprehend those responsible for this terrible incident and put them on trial.

And if you define what happened on tuesday as an act of war, then put them before a war-crimes tribunal.
Even after WWII the Allies didn't just shoot every nazi they could find. They tried to do justice, not revenge, and Americans had an important part in those procedings.

In the end all I want to say is this:
You can't serve the principles of freedom by not applying them to everyone in equal measure.

While many of you are still angry and shocked and maybe feeling vengefull right now (and you have every right to feel that way), please try to be Doctor Bashir and not turn into Admiral Ross.

Law and justice must never be silenced!

[This message has been edited by Lancer (edited 09-15-2001).]