America's Loss

[Weyoun11]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jonathan Talbot:
"The Individual who carried out this act and Died in those PLanes considered themselves Soldiers fighting a War against an Implacaple enemy. MOst of us have never known such a fight, now our Grandfathers Did, when they Fought against the Axis in WWII. Those individuals died doing what they thought was an Honorable act for the greater Glory of their People.
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And please remember that these kind of people took the Geneva Convention and threw it out the window. Why should we give a rats azz for them as fellow members of the human community when they commit an act of genocide upon the whole world?
Yeah sure these wack jobbies come from a poor part of the world and went to great lengths to make it big in America to train obstensibly as upstanding US citizens as civil pilots, not realising the benefits of such an accomplishment, or respecting the people that taught 'em because their inbred hatred for the "Great Satan" was such that everyone must die including if it means killing their own. What point was made by this attack by these guys? Blowing up the whole planet is cool for all Islam so they can all go to heaven and the infidels (us) go to hell? This is insanity. Would their Islamic brethren be proud of their heroic maytrs to know some of them were at a Florida strip club and threatening to spill blood an act forbidden in their holy texts? There was absolutely nothing remarkable about these SOBs...none. They were willing pawns played by a higher diabolical mastermind(s) who placed them in the U.S. to carry out these
treacherous attacks.

"Without the white the Jem'Hadar will die."--Admiral Ross
"I won't shed any tears."--Jadzia Dax ("A TIME TO STAND")

"There are rules Garak even in war."--Obrien
"Correction. Humans make rules in war. Rules that tend to make victory a little harder in my opinion."--Garak
"This isn't a vote. And Garak's right--we're
at war. Given a choice between us or them, there is no choice."--Cpt. Sisko

"Are you really ready to give up your life just for "the order of things"?"--Sisko
"It is not my life to give up Captain. And it never was. Our death brings glory to the founders."--Remeta'Klan
"What he say?"--Obrien
"All the wrong things."--Sisko

[The Tatterdemalion King]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Weyoun11:
And please remember that these kind of people took the Geneva Convention and threw it out the window. Why should we give a rats azz for them as fellow members of the human community when they commit an act of genocide upon the whole world?
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This was nowhere near an act of genocide. Nor was this an act upon the whole world.

And the reason we should give a rat's ass for them is because if we don't, we are no better than them. Revenge (a foolish goal) is not worth that price.

And who said anything about them blowing up the whole world?

[KlingonZ]

This is going to unite America like noting else. Even more than Pearl Harbor.

This lady may have stumbled but she has never failed. And if the Terrorists don't believe it they can all go straight to hell.

From the sound up in Long Island out to San Francisco Bay and everything in between we call our home. And we may have done some fighting amoungst ourselves, but we all stick together, and you can take that to the bank! That's the Cowboys and the Hippies and the Rebels and the Yanks.

You just go ahead and lay your hand on a New York Giants fan and I think you'r gonna finally understand!

You never would think that it ever would happen again in america.

Charlie Daniels.

We will get revenge. 86% of america is ready to go war over this.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by KlingonZ:

We will get revenge. 86% of america is ready to go war over this.</font>

And this is what scares me. Revenge just continues the misery and suffering. Do you want this to end well, or do you want this to send Earth screaming into the Abyss? If the former, Do Not Retailiate. Talk with them. Be the better people. It will be painful, it IS painful, but for the good of the world, don't make this mistake.
But, of course, if you want the latter, go right ahead. See you in Hell.

[KlingonZ]

Talking to people like this does no good. They have to be killed! And the countries that support have to be punished. Only then will it stop or at least slow way down.

What does it take for you to realize that this is a war. Do you want the same thing to happen in Toronto or London.

You can't talk to people like this. Fanatics that murder thousands of men, women and children have to be exterminated!

[The Tatterdemalion King]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by KlingonZ:
Talking to people like this does no good. They have to be killed! And the countries that support have to be punished. Only then will it stop or at least slow way down.
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No, it will not! Didn't you hear them? If you retailiate, Jihad!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
What does it take for you to realize that this is a war.

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I know it is war, but it doesn't have to be!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Do you want the same thing to happen in Toronto or London.

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I don't want this to happen to Kabul either.

And if it does happen to Toronto, what right do I have to take revenge?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
You can't talk to people like this. Fanatics that murder thousands of men, women and children have to be exterminated!

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REVENGE IS NOT JUSTICE! Love your enemy as your neighbour!!

That is not just an idle platitude! It is the only way to resolve this without bloodshed!

[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-15-2001).]

[Weyoun11]

Isn't this were they have forced us into Huth? A threat of global annihilation? What if their plan was to hijack some Russian nuclear missile silos instead and should we just sit around until they do? You know damn well where that one could lead. Just rent the HBO special "By Dawn's Early Light" where dissident forces framed Turkey a NATO country for attacking Russia with a nuclear weapon starting WWIII. Not "nearly" an act of genocide? "Death to America" chants
sound familiar to you? They could care less if all of America blows up and now they have proven it....its genocide against not only Americans but the worlds citizenry by attacking the WORLD TRADE CENTER. Its on record for all time so even though you may disagree with me I think a number of people share that opinion. You want 'em to be spared for a Nuremburg trial...what lawyer would want to defend these guys? You? Crimes against humanity=genocide a term the US has been using a lot in the media "crimes against humanity".

I have another somewhat personal question for you. How would you feel if the CN Tower was destroyed? The Bank of Montreal building? Your house? If our PM needs to conscript
(not likely but lets say the war measures act goes into effect etc.) soldiers and you are drafted to fight over there in this "war" will you? I must inform you that there are four duties a Canadian may/are (depending on circumstance) to be expected to perform as a citizen of the country:
1) Pay taxes is mandatory
2) Jury Duty when asked
3) Conduct the census when asked
4) FIGHT FOR YOUR COUNTRY WHEN ASKED

Since my grandfather was a paratrooper in WWII in the D-Day invasion I feel a need to
answer a similar call if it comes out to serve my nation and all it represents from the forces of evil. IMHO those hijackers forfeited their "rights".

"But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age mad more sinister and more protracted perhaps by the likes of peverted science. Let us therefore
brace ourselve to our duty and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years men shall still say," This was their finest hour." --Winston Churchill

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I am really am saddened by this world. I hate the idea that the only response to this is to murder more people. I, for one, do not think that this is as morally clear as the fight against the Third Reich, but I am reminded of the failures of those who tried 'appeasment' of the Nazis, and that only served to strengthen their position.
What really, is the point? Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I hate this. I hate it all. Maybe we should blow everything up, just so we could start again.

[This message has been edited by C. Huth (edited 09-15-2001).]

[Weyoun11]

"War is hell, there is no other way to refine it." --General Sherman US Civil War

I'm sorry Huth but no one likes war or killing but remember after Pearl Harbor the US wanted to avenge the lives lost that day by attacking Tokyo. Like one of the defense secretary said this isn't a matter of "vengeance" but self-defense. We have a chance to cast a mortal blow to terrorist groups for good and you can't act like Churchill said as if you're "made out of sugar candy".

"Anger, fear, agression...the Dark Side are they." --Yoda ("The Empire Strikes Back")

Yes love thy enemy but even God says the wicked must be punished.

[This message has been edited by Weyoun11 (edited 09-15-2001).]

[Keny Suda]

*****Lancer******
Whoever is behind this horrible attack is still a human being.
We may call them rabid animals or worse, but we should not treat them as such. After all, how do you deal with a rabid dog? You shoot it or kill it in any other way that is convenient at the moment.
Could the same be done with those terrorists? "Yes of course" many of you will say and saying so is certainly your right, since freedom of speech is one of the cornerstones of our social systems here in the so-called "first world".

But another of those cornerstones is our law, be it in America, Canada, France or here in Germany. The laws we make are certainly not without their flaws and shortcomings, but that is the case with almost anything mankind does. Still many of us believe that our laws are good and just and while this is not always the case we are glad that our legal systems insure us of the right to a fair process and court procedures that apply to everbody the same way, regardless of their descent, wealth or education.

I for one believe that the same laws should be applied to anybody, however horrendous their crimes might have been. IMO nobody should be just shot (or "nuked") without a trial.

If you now cry out "but they killed 10.000 innocents", then my answer would be to ask you in turn where you would draw the line. How many dead does it take for us to ignore the laws we otherwise hold as fair and just in the pursuit of a criminal?
If we want to truely protect the free and democratic system we all live in such a number must never exist!
If we start to apply the principals and values our societies are based upon selectivly to some, but not to all humans, how can these values hold any real meaning?
*****

*****C. Huth*****
And the reason we should give a rat's ass for them is because if we don't, we are no better than them. Revenge (a foolish goal) is not worth that price.
---
And this is what scares me. Revenge just continues the misery and suffering. Do you want this to end well, or do you want this to send Earth screaming into the Abyss? If the former, Do Not Retailiate. Talk with them. Be the better people. It will be painful, it IS painful, but for the good of the world, don't make this mistake.
But, of course, if you want the latter, go right ahead. See you in Hell.
---
I am really am saddened by this world. I hate the idea that the only response to this is to murder more people. I, for one, do not think that this is as morally clear as the fight against the Third Reich, but I am reminded of the failures of those who tried 'appeasment' of the Nazis, and that only served to strengthen their position.
What really, is the point? Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I hate this. I hate it all. Maybe we should blow everything up, just so we could start again.
*****

Since its beginning humanity was cursed with murder, vengeance and all cruelties the human mind is capable to think of (and these are many).

I agree with both of you. I for myself have to remember myself at various occasions, that killing a man for his deeds does not undo them. There is nothing to be gained by this. I know this. But another part of my conscience cries in vain "Let them pay". And again I only see the spiral of violence turning faster and faster while it draws us all into - well, time will tell. But I do not expect anything good.

[This message has been edited by Keny Suda (edited 09-15-2001).]

[Eric R.]

If we strike they strike back, this one of the arguments against us using force. but I ask have we not been in a war with terrorist since 1972? I still remember waking up in 1983 to the site of a Marine barracks building demolished, over 300 dead marine And I might add nearly 60 Frenchmen. we have tried everythng with some succeses and some failures. We have arrested them, we have bombed the, andm we have put them on trail and found them gulty only to have them still threaten "Devine" retailation. So we hit, that means they will hit back thats war.

[Treefrog]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phantom:
I agree with each and point. Except of course the references to the War 1812, IIRC the War started when the US tried to invade Canada (I could be wrong, I will have to look it up.) He was right about the burning of the Whitehouse though. Sorry guys.

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The reason why the United States went to war with England in 1812, was the impressment of American sailors by the English (impressment was the unlawful siezing of American citizens by the English, analogous to being drafted in your home by a foreign country).

We invaded Canada sometime in 1813 or 1814.


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"Cry havoc! And let slip the dogs of war..."
-Chang (ST VI)

[Treefrog]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Publius:
I am horrified by that statement Huth, horrified and speechless. When I look at this with detatched eyes all I see are terrorists who have ended the lives of thousands of other people because (if it is tracked down to Osama Bin Laden and this is not entirely certain by this point) they don't like our government's policies. Some have suggested that the very presence of western culture is seen by these groups as a kind of disease that they are fighting against. In the cold light of day that is amazingly self-centered and this horrific act is by its very definition inhumane. Human beings commit acts of depravity unknown to other species, to ourselves and our environment, but this does not instill in me sympathy.

I have seen others skirt this sort of thing above, by stating here on a thread that deals with a massive loss of American lives that our system of government is not to their liking, but I have tried to ignore it. I have seen worse that what has been said previously, and on any other thread what was said would not be inappropriate. On one BBS-style board for the HERO system website, another foreigner implied we Americans are no better than Nazis so American-bashing is a phenomenon not limited to this discussion by any means and much more abhorent statements have been made elsewhere that were not made here. In my own opinion, other nationals like to take potshots at us Americans, and apparently this seems to be a good time to hit us in more ways than one. You however seem to be suggesting that thousands of innocent Americans deserved to die, which is the only way I can take something like implying there was a 'justification' in the terrotists for these acts. A justification is simply an excuse, and we cannot excuse this act. You will undoubtably claim that this is not the case, but when you say something is justified you are acknowledging the fruits of that act as legitimate. That is to me beyod the pale. Someone here has said that Canadians also died in large numbers, I suppose that means you feel this way about your own nationals, I find this maybe even more strange and bizzare.

This is a mind-numbing statement which I as an American citizen, as a human being living on planet Earth, cannot abide. I am trying not to make any personal comments here out of respect for the owner of the board but I think that this makes my feelings known. I will go back to trying to be silent on this thread, my own opinions are too embroiled in anger at the moment, and I think I will try to ignore this thread for a while because I am just sick and hurt and not feeling the same way about being here that I once did. Once I was proud because of the content here, now I am sick.

Remember New York.
Remember the Pentagon.
Remember the fallen and those who unselfishly tried to help them only to became victims themselves.</font>

You couldn't have said it better Publius.

Where do you come off of, Huth? Canadians and Brits perished in this attack, and you're saying that you respect them?
I, as an American, find what you said extremely insulting and even a little degrading that you would side with them.

The United States was viciously attacked by a small group of fanatics, most likely financed by Osama Bin Laden (although I do think that Iraq is involved somehow). We, as Americans, do have the right to vent our frustration and horror at what happened. Thankfully you are in the extreme minority.

On a side note:

Today in the St Paul Pioneer Press (Pg 14A in the Snags, successes column):

"Standing Together

Berlin - More than 200,000 people and political leaders gathered before the Brandenburg Gate on Friday in a demonstration of solidarity with Americans, remembered here fondly for rebuilding Germany after World War II and sustaining the city during the Soviet blockade.

'No one knows better than the people here in Berlin what America has done for freedom and democracy in Germany,' said German President Johannes Rau. 'Therefore we say... America does not stand alone.'

Earlier, Germans across the country joined in three minutes of silence for the U.S. victims. Hundreds stood before the U.S. embassy in Berlin, joined by workers in overlooking office buildings who stood motionless in windows."

I can't say it enough, I find it moving to hear of the support around the world, but especially here in North America and Europe.

In my humble opinion, the Congress of the United States of America, should formalize a declaration of war against all terrorists and the countries that support, harbor, or sustain them.

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"Cry havoc! And let slip the dogs of war..."
-Chang (ST VI)

[This message has been edited by Treefrog (edited 09-15-2001).]

[Phantom]

To all those who think that striking back at "the Enemy" is wrong, I say, the only thing that happens when you "turn the other cheek" is that you get hit harder. I for one hope the Americans (and the Canadians) strike back when they find who is directly responsible and who the traitors to world peace that hid them and financed them. When they are found I hope they are shot on sight, a trial would only be a farce anyway. The traitors who hid them...(I hate to say it) bomb them back to the stone age. As one of your Senators said "they have found "our" citizens expendable.." I high light "our" because if you look at the lists of the dead it is US, the world who was stabbed in the back. Austrailians, Japanese, Koreans, British, Canadians, Americans, Germans and yes innocent members of the Arab States. This was not an attack on one country, it is a declaration of War to the World.

To those who think the Geneva Convention should protect these ANIMALS, that's right ANIMALS for that is what they are, think again...These bastards might think they are soldiers, but soldiers do not hide from their deeds...A soldier will come out and say "yes, I did that" these gutless sons of bitchs don't even have the courage to stick their heads up an admit to the atrocity they have just done. The Geneva Convention protects the treatment of Soldiers and Enemy Civilians...This trash doesn't fall into either category.

Oh, and about the War of 1812, just some friendly humour.

9/11/01. Black Tuesday. They are not truly gone, as long as we remeber.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Phantom]

Omnibus, if you do see this. Don't let the mis-spoken words of a few drive you away...We should stand together, even here.

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In the Praetors Name!

[This message has been edited by Phantom (edited 09-16-2001).]