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Thread: Is the ICON System too lethal?

  1. #31
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    Capt. Zymmer,
    I'd suggest lowering some of the weapon damages by 1d6 AND changing most of the fixed values. For example as listed a knife does 3+2d6. With an average of 10 points, that will drop the average character 4 would levels. Perhaps a bit too much. Worse if you add in the extra D6 or two to damage for dramatic successes. It gets downwirhgt rediculous f you use the advanced fighing styles. The minimum damage from a Andorian H'srail fighter pretty much eliminates the possibility of getting a scratch or minor wound.

    To addres this, I'd go with redcing mele weapon damages a die. I'd also convert fixed damage bonuses of 3 or more points to an extra damage die. For example, a Bat'leth currently does 5+2d6 would be reduced to 2+2d6. A knife would be 2d6. This gives average characters a chance of getting hit by one of these weapons and surviving-something that happens all the time on TV. You might even want to halve the fixed pluses before modification. And you also probably want to cap off wound level losses to limbs. A knife wound to the arm isn't going to kill someone--at least not right away.


    [This message has been edited by tonyg (edited 08-11-2001).]

  2. #32
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    Lightbulb

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos:
    For Hand-to-Hand fights modify the courage pts so they either half the damage or take in away completely. Makes combat last longer, therefore more drama and more nail biting on the PC's part.</font>
    Variation B:

    Allow the players to spend Courage Points to reduce damage done in combat...at the rate of 1d6 reduction in damage per CP spent. This will (a) allow the players to survive in combat a little longer, and (b) make them careful about getting into fights, as the CP pool is finite.

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  3. #33
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    I think the combat system in Icon is right on for fist-fights. In glancing through these messages I don't see many references (any?) to people blocking or dodging attacks.

    Even if you lose initiative you can use your Unarmed Combat skill as a reaction to block an attack against you. Very important to extend your life. Use Dodge for ranged attacks.

    In the Vitality versus Reaction area, I think without a doubt Vitality is more important. Remember, an Edge only gives you +1 or +2 dice--it doesn't make you roll any higher. So there is very little difference between rolling 3 dice and 4 dice for initiative statistically. Even more so, your Reaction Edge only applies to initiative in most situations. In actual combat it is your Dexterity Edge that is more important as you can use that when actually making attacks or blocks.

    Vitality, on the other hand, has a double effect of increasing your Resistance and your number of points per wound level. It's the best expenditure of DP to utility in the entire game.

    Players tend to ignore Fitness for Coordination or Intellect because there are so little Fitness skills. Why this is true, Fitness is the most important skill when in a fight. So, if everyone is running around with a Fitness of 2 and dropping like flies then I wound't necessarily say that there's a problem--the players made the decision on the type of character they wanted to play. If they want to be better/last longer in combat then they should spend the XP to do so and have the character work out. Don't make a science officer and be surprised when he drops because that LGT slugged him in his glass jaw.

    Also, don't forget about Courage Points. You can use CP to not only modify dice rolls but to also increase your Resistance when you take damage. If someone belts you in the head you can spend CP with your Resistance to shrug off the damage. This becomes important when you are 1 to 2 points away from falling into the next wound category and racking up the task penalties.

    I haven't mentioned much about ranged (phaser) attacks because yes, if you get shot you're probably going to go down. Rarely in Trek do people shrug off a phaser set on heavy stun or higher. In ranged combat your best bet is to fire first (Drama Die, Quick Draw) or make sure you don't get hit (Dodge with CP).

    If you have high ability scores and have the dice to spare don't forget your multiple attacks. Go ahead and take that second and third shot. There's usually a 1-in-6 chance you'll get lucky and hit... I'll take those odds.

    In short, there are plenty of options in Icon to keep combat interesting and last several rounds. In fact in my games we tend to have those extended fire/fist fights quite often.


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    [This message has been edited by Don (edited 08-17-2001).]

  4. #34
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    High Vitality is *very* powerful in the ICon system... and I think it's *supposed* to be. The likes of Klingons, Andorians, and Naussicans are *supposed* to be tough as nails. Your average Human is *supposed* to have a really hard time, but if you look at the sample characters in the books, you'll see that our heroes (who in the shows often *can* go toes to toe with these tough races) ...they're *well* above average in that regard. Riker has 5 for instance, which is a huge ratio over someone like Barclay, with 2, but because of diminishing returns, perhaps, Worf's 7 represents a 'significant edge' rather than the commanding advantage a member of a race that's born with a 4 (say an Andorian) has over an average Human (with 2) ...literally twice as tough.

    I think it's supposed to be that way. What Humans call brutal a gauntlet of cattle prods, Klingon youth call a Ritual, and what a lot of Humans call "Mounting an Arctic Expedition," Andorians call "Road trip!"

    Starfleet or other training, obviously enables humans to play in the same league, though, even if there are limitations.

    It's simply a matter of where you apply that adaptability. It's not too surprising that Humans developed weapons that can simply make an enemy disappear... It seems they decided that that was somehow wrong or too dangerous by the time of Next Gen, though.



  5. #35
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    Don I am gonna try and have a lot more blocking and stuff in my next fist fight and see how long it lasts...I trust your knowledge of the rules, so maybe I need to adjust how my NPCs fight

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  6. #36
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    I was wondering how some of you handle "excess damage" i.e. more damage than you need to kill or destroy something. Ex.:shooting a humanoid target with a phaser II set to level 16 (don't ask why). It has more , OK... WAY more, damage than it needs to vape the target, so what does the beam do? Just vape the target or punch through and "over penetrate" and hit someone or something behind it?
    I think this happened to O'Brian once during the Cardassian War, he was wrestling with a Cardassian and a woman threw a phaser to him that was set to maximum. IIRC he said the Cardassian "just disappeared".

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  7. #37
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    Thumbs up

    In addition to my advocacy of the status quo (lethality in ICON is just about right for Star Trek of any era), I wanted put in a thumbs up for the (optional) Hit Location system mechanics to be included in Decipher Trek.
    By the way, the best (most refined) version of LUG's Hit Location system was actually in the DUNE rpg.

  8. #38
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    Don,
    I disagree with you regarding LUG on fistfights. While I agree that Fitness and Vitality are important attributes that Players should consider improving, that is really irrevelant to the system. It isn't how the system hold up for Fit 3 Vit +1 characters, becuase the average character is Fit 2.

  9. #39
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    Thumbs up

    Personally, I've seen my own character take three hits before going down, it all depends on the dice rolls. My character had res. 4 with high pain threshold, a phaser set on stun 1, sometimes did no damage. Average will be 8, 2D6+2,using courage I could easily lower that and if lucky nothing happened.
    Now shouldn't the question be why are phasers set on heavy stun? Apart from the occassional Jem'Heddar, Klingon, or Andorian, setting one will do.
    If these are ST officers they should be warned about regulations, setting one is the default.
    To stop people going down because the phaser is set too high, then why not make a house rule where say; after the stun damage has taken away all your life pts it becomes real damage starting off the top. Example:
    Human with 2 res. is shot for 18 damage, goes down, 18-14, four leftover damage becomes real starting at healthy and then going down.

    You may accidently kill some frail characters if you overdo it with the stun.As for settings above 4 lvl, show your players the damage table, indicate to them how easy it is for them to die and trust me, their Dodge skill will rise to 6 in no time!

  10. #40
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tonyg:
    It isn't how the system hold up for Fit 3 Vit +1 characters, becuase the average character is Fit 2.</font>
    And those people should go down in a heap.

    I've seen characters with Fitness 2/Resistance 2 fight multi-round combats with no problem. They play smart. If you rush in to fight a Nausician and he has a knife against your Fitness of 2 you'd better have a medical team standing by.

    Just ask Picard.

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    [This message has been edited by Don (edited 08-27-2001).]

  11. #41
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">[weapons that] can simply make an enemy disappear... It seems they decided that that was somehow wrong or too dangerous by the time of Next Gen, though. </font>
    There were a few examples in TNG of phasers vaporizing things and people. Or a whole van in that Voyager episode. So they clearly still have the capability. But I think you are right - they decided it was now too dangerous. Clearly they were being much more careful on what weapons settings they were using.

    This actually makes a WHOLE LOT of sense. In TOS, setting your phaser to maximum would create a big hole... but in TNG, a maximum power shot would explosively reduce a small mountain to glowing rubble!!! Which, as has been pointed out on these boards previously, creates a huge danger to the user if it mistakenly hits a target too close to the user at high power.

    Clearly, they were being more careful in TNG, for an excellent reason. The technology had changed, requiring increased care.

  12. #42
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    Don,
    I though you were referring to unared combat, not armed combat. Armed combat is a completely different situation in LUG Trek. Weapon Damages for kives is a bit too much for a 2 Fitness character. With a base damage of 2d6+3, adddional damage for Stregth and fighting styles, combined with hit location rules knives become much more leathal than they are in the real world. The fixed modifers virtually elimnate the possibilty of a glacing blow. Ceasar must have had a Fit 5, Vitality +2 and the Toughness advantage in LUG!


    [This message has been edited by tonyg (edited 08-29-2001).]

  13. #43
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    Caesar was probably a lot more fit than the senators. Caesar was a veteran of many campaigns. And that's a pretty extreme example - on the other hand, many people died from a single well-placed knife blow. But many people survive knife blows too. Thus the damage levels seem about right to me.

    Plus, don't forget Caesar probably had some courage points. You can spend courage points to increase your resitance for the entire turn (or scene, if the gamemaster is generous). Caesar would certainly have spent what courage points he had- and he was a central enough character with enough adventures behind him to have many- that the senator's multiple stabbings of him could have been perfectly modeled by the ICON system as currently written.

  14. #44
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    Diamond,

    While you can spend courage to raise your resistance, it has been stated on the board bby the LUG staff that doing so soaks up damage on a 1 for 1 basis. So that's about 5-7 points for Julis.

    Also, the extra 1 or 2 d6 for a dramtic success combined with hit locations ensure that a well placed knife wound will kill. It's surving the poorly placed ones that difficult in LUG.

  15. #45
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    Use the tried and true method, don't get hit. Any martial artist will tell you the trick is not to be there when the hit lands. Copious use of the Dodge and Block skills would be in order. I find the LUG system very balanced. Try L5R, now there is lethal system...as it should be with characters running around with 3 foot long razor blades. Weapons kill that is why they are around.

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