Is the ICON System too lethal?

[Diamond]

That's not what the core books say... it says your resistance is increased temporarily. Otherwise, it would never be worthwhile spending courage points on that... far more efficient to spend them increasing your dodge roll.

But in situations where you are being hit a lot for a small amount of damage each time, it makes sense AND models the shows and cinema well (capturing the feel of Kirk roughing it up for several minutes on end) to resolve it as the ICON core book describes.

[Don Mappin]

I agree with you in some respects, tony. In fact I've stated publicall that the damage system in Icon isn't really well-suited for "highly detailed" combat. However, I think it works just fine for cinimatic Star Trek combat.

When I Narrate a game a "miss" (i.e. not making your target number to hit) does not necessarily mean that your knife blow missed--only that it inflicted no appreciable damage.

In hand-to-hand, a "miss" doesn't mean that a punch wasn't landed--only that Captain Kirk rolled with it and followed through with his own right cross.

Role playing games rely on the imagination of all involved. If you require your system to spoon-feed you all the details, especially in combat, you'll find it a pretty empty experience.

Use your imagination to fill in the blanks, especially when characters "miss" each other.


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[CmdrBluejeans]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phantom:
Use the tried and true method, don't get hit. Any martial artist will tell you the trick is not to be there when the hit lands. Copious use of the Dodge and Block skills would be in order.
</font>

On AnomalyMUX (hi, Anomaly, if you're reading this, take a bow!), my Andorian Chief Engineer learned way-back-when to buy up Dodge Skill. I have since taught the players in my tabletop game to value it likewise:

"Let me explain this to you, bunky ... Coordination 3, Dodge 4, means that the average difficulty to hit you with that phaser shot at 5m has gone from Diff 4 to Diff 7 or 8. When you consider the average 'extra' thug to have only Coordination 2 and Energy Weapon 2, he's got to roll *really* well to hit you at that point."

And that's as it should be. I am a firm believer -- as I think we all are, though it hasn't really come up as a major thread of this conversation -- in the dramatic art of having-the-PCs-easily-get-past-the-minor-thugs-and-saving-the-real-effort-for-the-main-baddies. You know, like in 7th Sea, in which NPCs are rated as to whether they are 'brutes' (one hit knocks 'em down), 'henchmen' (can take half the damage a PC can take), or 'villain' (can take equal damage to a PC before going down). I could easily see some kind of co-star/guest-star/extra rating system in DecipherTrek, or in some kind of house rule add-on.


BJ

[This message has been edited by CmdrBluejeans (edited 08-29-2001).]

[Don Mappin]

Diamond/tonyg:

Regarding spending Courage to increase your Resistance, I wasn't very clear. Courage spent in such a manner is for the duration of one round or an entire scene (at the discretion of the Narrator).

Meaning, if you spend 2CP to raise your Resistance from 3 to 5 your Resistance of 5 is against all attacks for that round. In most cases you'll find that Narrators will let you keep that bonus for the entire scene (combat).

It's important to note that you can spend CP at any time, even after you've been hit and told how much damage you're going to take. If you increase your Resistance then through CP then you keep that increased Resistance as per the rules above.

Hope this clears up this point.

And, again, to reiterate what I said earlier in this thread and as Phantom pointed out, the presumption is that you are using Dodge/Block to avoid that telling blow.


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[Kith Qel-Droma]

I don't care for the ICON wound system at all. Allows to much of a chance for munchkins with all the advantages and stuff.

I use a modified version based on Harn, Babylon 5 and ICON.

[Phantom]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kith Qel-Droma:
I don't care for the ICON wound system at all. Allows to much of a chance for munchkins with all the advantages and stuff.

I use a modified version based on Harn, Babylon 5 and ICON.</font>

I have yet to see a "munchkin" proof game system. Any system can be taken advantage of by a power player.



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In the Praetors Name!

[Kith Qel-Droma]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phantom:
I have yet to see a "munchkin" proof game system. Any system can be taken advantage of by a power player.
</font>

Trust me, there are several games out there that have nothing available for munchkin players unless they are in the hands of an incompetent GM (I own a few and love them). They tend to be more realistic and alot of gamers tend to avoid them since they can't have "cool" characters in them. They emphasize role-playing instead of roll-playing. The two I compare the most are AD&D and *Fantasy Earth*. In AD&D a dagger does 1d4 damage plus strength and magical bonuses if any. In Fantasy Earth a Dagger has a +8 damage rating, plus strength and magical damage bonus. Your dead at 17+ to head, face, neck, chest, abdomen and groin after armor reductions which are not that high to begin with, plus if you are outnumbered, you may never get a chance to attack in a round (first come first serve).

Plus no one in my group can be a munchkin because I run my games with a choker chain collar. I have about half-a-dozen PC deaths in Fantasy Earth alone.

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"They say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? That one fell in the next county!"

[tonyg]

Diamond,
The topic of spending Courage Points to increase a character's resistance came up on the boards a long time (probably 2 years)ago. Someone at LUG offically stated that increasing a character's resistance DOESN'T increase the number of damage points allowed per wound level, but instead acts like armor.

I remember this because I was running it the other way in my campaign and was surprised by the OFFICAL WORD.

[tonyg]

Don,

I have no problems with the misses in ICON. Just how the game handles the hits-epsecially when trying to run Star Trek. Many times in the series chararacter get hit and survive hits that would have players in the ICON system reaching for new character sheets. FOr instance, in the last season of DS9 they had that epidoe where most of the main character were holding a planet against the Jem'hadar ("Siege of AR"-something somthing). At the big fight near the end of the episode, just about everyone gets hit by a shot from Jem'hadar energy rifle. Sisko takes what is obviously a hit that drop him at least one wound level.

In the ICON system the 18+6d6 damage would drop just about any of the characters.

[Gamethyme]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phantom:
I find the LUG system very balanced. Try L5R, now there is lethal system...as it should be with characters running around with 3 foot long razor blades. Weapons kill that is why they are around.
</font>

L5R 2E is less lethal than 1E, but it's still pretty deadly.

Even deadlier is Cyberpunk 2020 -- A good game, mind you, but VERY lethal.

So is Blue Planet v2 ... and Silhouette ...

Compared to all of these, LUGTrek is very friendly to PC's.

(On a side note, I'm working on a LUGTrek / L5R Conversion to see if I can make it work in a satisfactory manner. So far, the answer is 'no')

Gamethyme

[Captain Zymmer]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gamethyme:
Even deadlier is Cyberpunk 2020 -- A good game, mind you, but VERY lethal.</font>

You want really lethal try Cyberpunk 2013, now that was a lethal system...most people went down with one bullet

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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
http://www.usslexington.net
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[Don Mappin]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tonyg:
Sisko takes what is obviously a hit that drop him at least one wound level.</font>

Obviously? Er, no. Maybe to you, but not me.

What obviously happened was an instance of dramatic license that transcends dice rolls and mechanics. It was a matter of dramatic storytelling.

You’re right; 18+6d6 will drop just about any character—it’s supposed to, but that’s not what the final scene in “The Siege of AR-558” was about.

While you’re contemplating rolls, damage points, and wound levels, I’d be Narrating the scene as such:

“Jem’Hadar swarm all around you, threatening to breech your defenses. Munoz and Erickson drop in a heap as shots hit them squarely in the chest, throwing their crumpling bodies in the air. Suddenly, two Jem’Hadar appear in front of you, out of thin air, leveling their disruptors at you! Roll initiative…”

After a couple of rounds of hand-do-hand combat (that’s how I recall the final battle in “The Siege of AR-558”) the following happens:

“You bring down the butt of your phaser rifle on a Jem’Hadar, crushing him into the dirt. Swinging around, you catch another with your rifle, catching a glimpse of the pitched battle going on around you. For every Starfleet personnel you see there are two Jem’Hadar battle them. Your adrenaline rush reaches a feverish pitch as a Jem’Hadar is shot in front of you, collapsing to the ground, its disruptor that was leveled at you moments ago now lays idly on the ground.”

As soon as the player fails initiative (or I deem the time proper to wrap the scene up):

“Unfortunately you’re not quite quick enough. As you bring up your phaser rifle the Jem’Hadar before you growls and fires, his distruptor shot catching you in the shoulder, spinning you around.” (Rolling dice.) “A searing white-hot flame engulfs your arm and white pain fills your vision. As you crash against the rocks behind you, you feel yourself falling into a pit of oblivion. Doing so, looking out across the battlefield, you see the battle rages on and see Jem’Hadar and Starfleet alike fall. Please hand me your character sheet.”

Afterwards, when the player is surprised to be alive, they find out, luckily, that it was only a glancing shot that hit them. Funny that.

While you may have issues that you can’t accurate recreate every battle seen in Star Trek with the Icon system, I contend that no system will meet your stringent criteria and the Icon system does the job for the cinematic battle scenes seen on screen.

The mechanics will only go so far in recreating the Star Trek experience: the rest is left up to you.

(BTW, it’s evident that you have your opinions of the Icon system and I have mine. You are welcome to yours and if you don’t like the Icon damage system then change it. My point has been to clear up some rules misconceptions and illustrate how the Icon system is more than capable in recreating the battles seen in Star Trek, provided the Narrator and the players are familiar with all the options at their disposal. What you determine is best for your game is your decision.)


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[Don Mappin]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tonyg:
Diamond,
The topic of spending Courage Points to increase a character's resistance came up on the boards a long time (probably 2 years)ago. Someone at LUG offically stated that increasing a character's resistance DOESN'T increase the number of damage points allowed per wound level, but instead acts like armor.
</font>

Correct. Courage Points spent to increase your Resistance do only that—your effective wound levels do not change.

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[This message has been edited by Don (edited 08-30-2001).]

[Don Mappin]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kith Qel-Droma:
I don't care for the ICON wound system at all. Allows to much of a chance for munchkins with all the advantages and stuff.</font>

You want to min/max with a Fitness of 5, Vitality of +2 and Toughness in my game for a Resistance of 9? Be my guest!

Be prepared for lots of diplomatic away team missions and skill tests—tests you’ll likely fail because you decided to “get away with something” and buff your character up.

There’s no such thing as a free lunch in Icon using a DP-based system. Every character has strengths and deficiencies.


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[Kith Qel-Droma]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tonyg:
Kith,
It is possible to "muchkin" in ANY game. Even in diceless RPGs. </font>

Nah, there are a handful of games that you can never "muchkin" in, I own three them. TSR Boothill 3rd Edition, Fantasy Earth and Chivalry and Sorcery. In Boothill, whenever you are injured you roll one 1D6. On a result of 1-2 you have a light wound to whatever hit location you have been struck. On a 3-5 you have a serious wound. On a 6, your dead (unless the wound is to the arms or legs, there are different rules regarding those hits). There are modifiers for the Buffalo Rifle and for chest head hits. It is possible to be hit to the chest with a Buffalo Rifle and have a +2 modifier to the wound roll (i.e. an a roll of 4+ your dead, no tap backs). I mentioned Fantasy Earth before, but it is pretty lethal system and munchkins simply don't exist. Chivalry and Sorcery, I will admit that if you play the fantasy version, than it is possible for a rules lawyer to find enough loop-holes to create a potent starting character who will only get stronger as the game goes on, however the game was intended for real world gaming and we are playing in greater Germany during Hohenstaufen Dynasty, 12th Century. The game year is 10th September 1143 AD. No munchkins there either. AS an idea we have a 7th level Witch, but her skills are still in the 60% range, BEFORE penalties. She has been around for about 2.5 game years. Worst injury she had, a war arrow through her right forearm.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tonyg:
One of the jobs of a GM is to prevent this. Don's example of giving diplomatic mission to players who put too much into their combat stats is a good one. Players "munckin" becuase previous GMs have permitted it. Good GMs will put a stop to this, and provide reawrds for players who don't munckin. </font>

I don't agree with the giving a diplomatic mission to the powerhouse character in the group; IF there are diplomatic characters already in that group. Now if ALL the players did this with their characters than fine, but I have a great pleasure that my players are the more down to earth, realistic players. They would never create a powerhouse character, unless the random die rolls create such a character, than they would take the time to explain how the character got that way. They feel that if they cannot explain why their character got such a roll they should not get it.

Example: Our ex-Marine rolled up a fighter character that had a freaking 18/97 Strength score. He had to explain why his character was so big, being only about 17 or 18 years old. Since we were starting the game near a lumber yard, he explained that his character started working there when he was younger and all the lifting of tree logs helped him to build up his body.

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"They say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? That one fell in the next county!"