Is the ICON System too lethal?

[Phantom]

But you are forgetting that if the GM allows the players to assign their stats in the Boot Hill most will put the largest number in the luck trait. You get shot in the head, even with that Buffalo Rifle, character make his luck save, something intervened to cause the shot to miss. Thought the player does need to come up with a convincing reason.

As to games like C&S, IIRC there is die roll method for character stats. My group had a player in it who was uncannyily lucking when it came to roll dice for stats, and he was the very definition of a munchkin (POWER player). So, you see the munch effect can slip into any game. Though I cannot speak for Fantasy Earth. It all depends on, as stated above, how strong the GM wants to be with their players...not the game system. Nothing is foolproof.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Diamond]

Thanks Don. I hadn't. Although I can see how some people might have been confused. The Core book says your wound levels are equal to your resistance. It would have been slightly better to have said that wound levels are equal to your fitness+ vitality.

But it only makes sense to treat courage points as only increasing resistance and not wound levels. Otherwise you get into the situation where you spend courage points, take damage but are still alive. Then the next turn (or scene) your courage-inspired wound points go away but the damage remains, so you fall down dead.

Clearly that involves more clumsy bookeeping and illogical results. To me, spending courage points to increase resistance (only, not wound levels) is clearly the way to go. That's the way I've always run it in my game.

It reminded me of a great scene we had in the Doctor Who game in which excellent drama resulted from that use of the courage point rule. The scene: a wooded hill at Pennsic (a midevial historical re-enactment event) in the 28th century (a time when the Earth Empire was drawing to a close and people were doing decadent stuff like making huge and intricate entertainments, kind of like the bread and circuses of the Roman Empire). The companions nearly capture the War Captain, the right hand man of the War Chief who has been a re-occuring villain. The War Captain (a former SCA-king processed by the War Chief and used to concour primitive planets) fights hand to hand against the companion who is a native to one of the planets the War Captain was invading. So the companion is determined to avenge her people but the War Captain is desperate to escape.

So as they fought, at one point the War Captain got a lucky roll on the drama die... rolled to hit far higher than the companion could block. So it was a perfect time for her to spend courage points to keep from dropping into the next wound category, avoiding the increased wound penalties.

That battle was extremely intense, and courage points were spent by both at critical times. My players have discovered that wound penalties are critically important - once you've got wound penalties pulling you down it is very hard to reverse the course of battle (which is as it should be, very realistic). But this battle the person who had the upper hand reversed twice!

[tonyg]

Don,

[In jest}: I suppose an RPG can't be too letahl if you narrate most of the combat.

[ Seriously]: It appears that much of this revolves around differences in style of play as much as anything. You appear to have a more "narrative/storytelling" style of running that I do. I prefer a more "active" style of running.




[This message has been edited by tonyg (edited 08-30-2001).]

[tonyg]

Kith,
It is possible to "muchkin" in ANY game. Even in diceless RPGs.

One of the jobs of a GM is to prevent this. Don's example of giving diplomatic mission to players who put too much into their combat stats is a good one. Players "munckin" becuase previous GMs have permitted it. Good GMs will put a stop to this, and provide reawrds for players who don't munckin.

[Kith Qel-Droma]

I think you have the wrong definition of Munchkins.

Munchkins, AFAIK, are those who are hideously powerful. Like a AD&D warrior with 200+ hitpoints with immunities out the whazoo from wish spells and a +12 Hackmaster sword that requires the target to save vs. magic with a -4 penalty or die by decapitation; with AC -12 armor that grants 99% magic resistance and regenerates 15 hitpoints per round all at low levels. That is a munchkin, and I have seen a few such characters! I don't want to go to far off topic, but a DM I know loves the Anti-heros like Prince Elric in the Stormbringer stories. He handed out a +5 vorpal sword to a 1st level character, that gave him the hitpoints it sucked from other characters (his version of Stormbringer), he than had the Tarrasque fight us as if it had nothing better to do than track down a starting-out-low-level-party for shits and giggles, oh he handed out massively powerful weapons and armor to low level characters too. My dwarf had been given the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords and the armor of power with a Holy hammer of my patron dwarf god. Everything in his campaign reeked of munchkinism! Even NPCs.

Having high stats IMHO is not munchkinism. Having high stats as the result of random rolls is good rolling and it could help you to survive in my games. I do have the title deadliest GM in my area.

The only system I know of that produces munchkins like they are going out of style is Cyberpunk.

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"They say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? That one fell in the next county!"

[Phantom]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kith Qel-Droma:


Munchkins, AFAIK, are those who are hideously powerful. Like a AD&D warrior with 200+ hitpoints with immunities out the whazoo from wish spells and a +12 Hackmaster sword that requires the target to save vs. magic with a -4 penalty or die by decapitation; with AC -12 armor that grants 99% magic resistance and regenerates 15 hitpoints per round all at low levels. That is a munchkin, and I have seen a few such characters!
</font>

You are lucky, remember that player I mentioned in my last post...your description sounds just like his D&D character when we finished our first campaign together...You laugh because you think I'm joking.

You are right, I believe the proper term, in my area anyway, seems to be twink. I may be wrong. Either way, as far as I have seen...a devious player can take advantage of any system. That player in my group would often borrow a new game that was being run so he could exploit it. The new D&D game came out, what class did he want to take...the Monk which is the most over the top (read unbalanced) character class it has been my sorry pleasure to come across. Talk about your munch or twink, whatever the term is, bait.

As to the GM you mentioned, he should have taken a little more stock in planning his game. Sounds to me like he wanted a high level-high fantasy type game. In this case he either should have started you all out at a higher level...15th at least if he wanted you fight the Terrasque1?!?! Or played Monty Haul with the minor magic and experience to build your characters quickly up to the level he wanted. With all respect to your friend his game seems a little silly to me.

BTW, how did your group fare against the Terrasque? We fought one, TWICE, somehow the wish spell to finish him off fizzeled. Then again we were around 15-16th level at the time.



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In the Praetors Name!

[Kith Qel-Droma]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phantom:
You are right, I believe the proper term, in my area anyway, seems to be twink. I may be wrong. Either way, as far as I have seen...a devious player can take advantage of any system. That player in my group would often borrow a new game that was being run so he could exploit it. The new D&D game came out, what class did he want to take...the Monk which is the most over the top (read unbalanced) character class it has been my sorry pleasure to come across. Talk about your munch or twink, whatever the term is, bait.
</font>

The 2nd Edition Gamer Bible says (not the word of god remember) that "A Twink or "twinkie" is someone who is very proficient with abusing the rules of the game, not just in character creation but even during play." They are also known as Rules Lawyers by older gamers, who min/max their characters. People who know if they take this advantage will give them this skill and if they take this skill they will get a bonus to the previous skill which puts them in the expertise category and when they take this background option they will get bonus development points to buy further stuff. The Palladium system is well known for this. You can get massive bonuses to your attributes by taking certain skills and can increase you starting HP and SDC as well. Talk about Twinkies, HOLY SCHIT!

[/QUOTE]
As to the GM you mentioned, he should have taken a little more stock in planning his game. Sounds to me like he wanted a high level-high fantasy type game. In this case he either should have started you all out at a higher level...15th at least if he wanted you fight the Terrasque1?!?! Or played Monty Haul with the minor magic and experience to build your characters quickly up to the level he wanted. With all respect to your friend his game seems a little silly to me.
[/QUOTE]

ALL of his gamnes tend to go this way, regardless of teh system. He is a goth who LOVES the anti-hero and hopless situations. He reads Poison Elves and loves Anime, not the bug eyed girls with legs that go up to their armpits, but the ones with invincible characters who can take a haymaker punch from Superman and laugh hysterically before mopping the floor with him. Think Goku level 12 super saiyan.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
BTW, how did your group fare against the Terrasque? We fought one, TWICE, somehow the wish spell to finish him off fizzeled. Then again we were around 15-16th level at the time.

</font>

The character with the freaking +5 Vorpal sword took it out in the first few rounds, than failed his save vs. possesion and killed the rest of the party. The rest of us ran for our lives when the thing first appeared (a normal reaction to seeing the "devourer of civilizations").


Just to add in, the Gamer's Bible lists Star Trek LUG game and has this for the ratings, keep in mind this is one persons opinion.

Complexity: 2-
Popularity: 2-
Support: 2+
Completness: 2+
Versatility: 2

DnD 3rd Edition has,
Complexity: 2+ (3 with related books that add more options)
Popularity: 3+
Support: 3+
Completness: 1-
Versatility: 1+

You want low numbers for Complexity, but having high numbers does not mean it is a bad game, just that it requires more detail and understanding to get the full enjoyment out of the game. The rest you want high numbers. They go from 1-3, the - and + represent a downside or plus to it for that category.

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"They say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? That one fell in the next county!"

[This message has been edited by Kith Qel-Droma (edited 08-31-2001).]

[tonyg]

Kith,

By your definitation of munkins being megapowerful characters, it is easy to munkin in all the games you described. I've run Boot Hill, and it has lots of area where it can be explotied. Characters with high Str and Coo stats who take half of thier skill choices in one weapon for example.

If you don't think part the GM's job is to watch out for munckins & twinks you'll wind up with more of each.

I've seen many game rules be abused by players, as well some very good character idea who just happen to be tough in combat. What makes the difference is the character concept. For instance, in LUG Trek, just about all Andorians wind up being potential combat machines. Same for Klingons. Both species have background reasons for this, since both place great emphasis on combat training, and have many physical advantages.
What detminies if a player is milking the sytem or not is detmined by the Narrator after seeing/hearing about the player's character concept.

What balances such characters out in the ICON system is that unlike many other RPGs, combat isn't the primary activilty of the characters in Star Trek. Being a tough warrior in TREK doesn't do for you what it does in D&D. And even when combat does break out, the weapons of the setting tend to balance out combat. Even a restance of 9 doesn't mean much against phasers and disruptors.

[Kith Qel-Droma]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by tonyg:
Kith,
I've run Boot Hill, and it has lots of area where it can be explotied. Characters with high Str and Coo stats who take half of thier skill choices in one weapon for example.</font>

Having a
Strength of 20
Coordination of 20
Observation of 20
Stature 10
Luck 10
Pistol 3
Fast draw 20
Riding 20
Stealth 20
starting out in Boothill does not constitute a munchkin. Why? Because unlike games where you become more powerful as you gain levels, or combat/dodge bonuses, whatever you get starting out in Boothill is what your character is for the character's entire life, PERIOD! In Boothill you can die by so many ways it is ludicrous to list them all. There are no hitpoints, armor class, dodge rolls, resistance, natural toughness or armor ratings. No Advantages/Disadvantages, Hinderances/Edges which will make your character near invincible, nothing to prevent a bullet, knife, hatchet, spear, 300 foot falls, snake bites, explosions, hangmen's noose from killing you. Keep in mind a Luck check only goes so far as to saving the character. To me a munchkin in Boothill is a character with the following stats either at the very beginning of the campaign or after only a few sessions.
Strength 24
Coordination 25
Observation 22
Stature 21
Luck 18
Pistol 12
Rifle 10
Fastdraw 40
Now that is a munchkin in Boothill and probably means a lame-ass GM and Hack'n'Slash players.

This is not a personal attack, so don't take it the wrong way, but I have played and GM the game for many years now and I have yet to see an actual "Munchkin" in the game.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
If you don't think part the GM's job is to watch out for munckins & twinks you'll wind up with more of each.

</font>

I know part of the GMs job is to watch for twinkies and munchkins, I have been doing this for over 15 years and assisting in game design for 10. If a player so much as attempts something like this I come down on them like 100 metric tons of solid bricks.

Not wanting to go any further off topic but, the only way I could see a munchkin in a Boothill (or Fantasy Earth, or a 'Historical' Chivalry & Sorcery campaign) is if it is in a poorly run game group.

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"They say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? That one fell in the next county!"

[Kith Qel-Droma]

Just want to point out tonyg my previous post is not an attack of anykind. My re-reading of it could be taking as such. Lets just say that we have different views of munchkins and things based on our own experiences with game groups.

Now to get this back on topic, I would agree that the brawling aspect of the game could be stretched out, otherwise you have people who are being knocked out with one punch each compared to boxing and martial arts fights which can have dozens of glancing and solid hits (yes it is possible to knock people out with one punch, but it should not be as easy as it is in ICON). If you feel it needs to be changed, go ahead, there just guidelines for combat.

Hope this puts it back on topic.

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"They say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? That one fell in the next county!"

[Phantom]

It all goes back to two points. When the character is being made up, the player should realize that some points will have to be spent in buyer extra points of Vitality or Fitness, which is not going to be expensive (2 pts for an attribute, 1 for an edge) most characters ought to be able to raise one or both without detracting from skills and other parts of the character.

As to the possibilities of a KO, the martial arts, of which Boxing is one, you a are trained to take an opponent down as quickly as possible. If you know where to hit a KO is very easy to achieve, most normal poeple will be knocked out with one punch, as long as that punch is to a "vital" area such as a long the jaw (there are 3 nerve centers that run the length of the jaw, hit that area and it is good night.) What causes the "glancing blow" is the fact your opponent is good enough to be able to block some of your attacks...which brings in the Dodge/Block skills.

Yes, you are right it is easy to knock out or kill a character in ICON system, if he hasn't spent the points in the attributes...which makes him pretty much the "average guy". Starfleet personel are very seldom average.

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In the Praetors Name!

[tonyg]

Phantom,
I take that you don't use the devlopment pacakages.

[Phantom]

I'm not sure I understand the question. I use the generation system in the core book. Are you talking about the packages that are in the Players Guide, if so then I do not as I don't have a copy of the Book.

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In the Praetors Name!

[tonyg]

Phantom,
What I mean is: Do you use packages, tours pof duty, etc. or do you create characters by spending 125 DPs?

If you are using packages, getting Fitness and Vitality up requiring taking the correct packages. There are very few packages that raise Fitness and/or Vitality.

Most PC starfleet officers usually DON'T don't take these packages, and star with at Fitness of 2.

[tonyg]

Phontom,
That's my point.