Registered User
Is the ICON System too lethal?
I find that average officer get dropped realfast by a good kick or a good punch in the game. Anyone got ideas on how to make hand tohand combat last a bit longer?
I have seen more bad guys andplayers knocked out by one hit and left laying on the ground. Also phaser fire kills fast.
Just curious if anyone else has noticed this.
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Captain Zymmer
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Registered User
First of all Phasers KILL! That is what they are used for, you can't change that.
As to hand-to-hand, if you want to make your PCs tougher you might consider giving your chartacters the High Pain Threshold and/or Athletic Ability for free.
In our first (and only game) my character was an Anodroian Sec/Tac officer, I took or was given in a template both of the above, mixed with a Fitness of 4 (vitality +1) there wasn't much that could take my character down in one shot. Also, the first rule of fist fights...don't get into a fight with someone who is better then you.
My Andorian was an expert at SF Martial Arts (with a little Kharakom thrown in as well).
Try those two advantages and see what happens.
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In the Praetors Name!
Registered User
Phasers don't kill people....
KLINGONS kill people!!!
Phasers tend to end fights real quick unless you issue out armor of some sort. I made up Personal Ablative Armor System. The PAAS is a comprehensive armored protection system for the individual fighting being. It is modular, and cover the entire body, or just the torso and head. Consists of leg armor, arm armor, chestplate, armor underwear, and helmet with tactical tricorder, VA communicator, and HUD built in. Or just use the personal shield in the Players' Guide.
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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"
Registered User
Maybe the ICON system is a little hard on those who end up in a fight...but remember two things:
1) Phasers (disruptors, etc...) are supposed to end fights fast;
2) In the Trek Universe, if you end up brawling (or shooting) it out, you've pretty much buggered up your mission anyway, and probably deserve to get shot (you're supposed to use your brains, not your fists/guns).
Just my $0.02 worth...
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"...and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who is this God Person Anyway?"
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Moderator
I feel that it is because the atypical human, who PCs will play at somepoint. Has only 2 health per rank (I can't remember the exact wording).
Where as a burly character like my Nausicaan had 5 health per rank.
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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
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Registered User
I have to agree. Phasers are designed to be lethal and as such will kill, however things go both ways, players can die quickly but so can the bad guys.
As for hand to hand, its really up to the individual. In the ICON system a security officer can take quite a bit of punishment before going down, while a medical officer will probably get knocked out quickly. I don't see a problem with this because as a "non-combat" character you should be trying to stay out of trouble in the first place.
So, although both ranged and melee combat can be lethal and short, it is realistic and appropiate for the setting.
Registered User
Tell me he wasn't in Starfleet. PLEASE. What are you doing, lowering the bar?<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SIR SIG:
I feel that it is because the atypical human, who PCs will play at somepoint. Has only 2 health per rank (I can't remember the exact wording).
Where as a burly character like my Nausicaan had 5 health per rank.
</font>
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In the Praetors Name!
Registered User
I never said Phasers weren't lethal...I understand one shot should take you out...but hand-to-hand fights are part of Classic Trek...remember when Kirk would fight the bad guys? Now when kicks and punches do so much damage and the average character has 3 points per heath level, 1 hit puts you into penalties big time and then a second hit puts you down...yawn...
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Captain Zymmer
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Moderator
Well, in all my trek games, I have found you are quite correct.
Thing is, I personally agree with the speed of combat in ICON.
There are, however, two things you can do here, but it depends on whether the concerns about the speed of fights are yours (ie; NPC's going down too quick for Dramatic effect), or your players...
The first thing you can do is push the players into purchasing stats and edges.
Fitness and Coordination are the two big fighting ones, but in a choice over Vitality (for damage soaking) and Reaction (for the initiative bonus) I would push the initiative everytime...
An old Cyberpunk rule says "he who acts first, walks away..."
If your NPC's are going down too quick fro Dramatic purposes, simply level the playing field. Not everyone is going to have a species basic stats, and while the hoards of guards and mooks will, the bad guy and sidekicks are going to be of a vaguely similar level to that of the crew...
The other thing you can do, is cheat, now I dont mean outright rip-off your players, thats no fun for you or them. But if its a climatic finale between the Captain and the Romulan Agent, and the rules say the agent takes the captain down with one punch... But your relying on your crew arriving in the nick of time...
Cheat, re-interpret the dice roll, give some (but not all the damage), put him on a bad footing, by all means, but let the fight continue for as long as dramatically appropriate.
Trust me, they'll thank you for it!
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DanG.
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[This message has been edited by Dan Gurden (edited 08-06-2001).]
Moderator
Over too quickly eh, man I would have loved to have that happen. The only fist fight that my character has ever been in was against a Klingon commander that felt insulted by having my character in the same room with him...the fight lasted well in to 8 rounds, now I know that it's only 40 seconds, but I took a pounding in those 40 seconds, fortunately I had a higher dodge, and I used it, with a multiple action penalty so I could get a few hits in my self.
Situation - Me, alone, with 5 Klingons
Me = Fit. 3, Vit. +2, unarmed combat 3(5) Kerell Ifla, 3(4) SF martial arts, dodge 3, high pain threshold, and athletic ability
Klingon = Fit. 4 Vit. +2, unarmed combat 4(6), Mok'bara, dodge 1, high pain threshold, toughness.
And I nearly got stomped into gagk, by just the first one. If the others had decided to join in...ouch
Phoenix...
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"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
-Napoleon
Registered User
Something you could introduce is an optional rule I first saw used in GURPS.
At the beginning of a fight roll 2d6 (or 1d6 if you think 2d6 is too long) the result is the number of combat rounds that occur before a "lull". (Of course GURPS combat rounds are 1 second each)
Roll 1d6 and see how long the lull will last "naturally".
After the lull, roll one d6 and that is the time until the next lull.
The lull is where the characters circle each other warily, exchange witty (or less than witty dialogue) and where you can try to insert some classic Trek style attempts to reason with your opponant. (Diplomacy test, Fast Talk Test, Persuasion Test, etc).
If someone wants to *press* during the lull instead of panting or manuevering for position have them engage in a Planetary Tactics contest with the opponant (Or perhaps just a Presence+Willpower)..if they win they can press the attack and abruptly end the lull, but any attacks right then are under the Multiple Actions clause.
The same sort of test could be used to *cause* a lull (character manuevers to a position where a lull can be forced, etc).
Ex: Two Starfleet Officers are exchanging weapons fire with some Masquis in a warehouse on a border world. They are all using dodge, cover, and so on. During the battle two Masquis go down leaving five, so far the Starfleet guys are still going. After four exchanges of fire a Lull occurs, the lull is supposed to last for three rounds.
SF Sec 1: Uses the lull to try to use stealth to get to a better firing position.
SF Sec 2: Uses the lull to try to use Persuasion to get the Masquis to surrender as reinforcements are on the way.
Masquis 1: Uses Command to try to convince his fellows to keep fighting.
Masquis 2: Uses lull to tricorder scan for the positions of the two SF sec guys.
Masquis 3: Uses Stealth to get to better cover.
Masquis 4: Tries to *push* the Lull to end so SF Sec can't convince his fellows to give up.
Masquis 5: Tries to use medkit to wake up two stunned Masquis members.
Take it or leave it, but it may be useful.
Peace
Registered User
A good idea, but I think an initiative roll would suffice for trying to "press" the lull. Planetary Tactics is something totally different, and INMHO would not be used in a fistfight.
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In the Praetors Name!
Registered User
You can easily supply whatever mechanic you prefer to use, and though I agree about the fist fight in the case of a one on one fight, if the fist fight was say one crew vs another crew (like the brawl in the Trouble With Tribbles) the senior officer might use planetary tactics which does apply to combat off of planets involving personnel vs personnel. In the original system, Tactics applies even in one on one fights so I left that as the guiding function.
Your world, use whatever you think suits best.
Peace
Registered User
I let my players roll their own damage so the problem becomes with the Tactical Officer (+1 Str) kicks a Romulan (3 fitness, +1 Vitality) in the head for 9 (3+1d6+1; rolled a 5) she has done over two wound levels to him in one shot. The next hit will put him out for sure.
Now I love the old TOS fights and can't simulate them this way. The only solution is to take the rolling of damage out of my players hands and that is against my principles as a narrator.
I sunno...guess I was hoping there were other poeple who shared the same feeling, but modern Trek's lack of over the top fist fights has left a bad taste in my mouth.
Still I will find a way
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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Strange New Worlds at;
http://www.geocities.com/aslan_collas
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Registered User
My players learned pretty quickly to boost Fitness and vitality a couple of points so as to survive fist fights.
In the Klingon game I play in, fights with weaponry last a long time. The added bonus to parry that most weapons provide mean that equally matched characters will struggle to hit one another.
In gunfights my bad guys always use disruptors on setting three, so that the characters stand a chance of surviving a hit. They, of course, use heavy stun which is pretty much an instant KO.
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Greg
"Calm may work for Locutus of Borg here, but I'm freaked and intend to stay that way."
Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Prophecy Girl.
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