Show me where I am on the Map

[Hirlindale]

Besides the map in the Romulan Box Set has anyone made one that agrees with Trek Canon?
I am running a series set during the Dominion War and would like to see how far they got. Besides the info in the D.W.S.

[Evan van Eyk]

I made a map based upon all information I got in any LUG book. Its on my homepage www.farrealms.de in thr Trek section.
Although its correct according to LUG there are some problems with the information given in the series. At the end of the series we learn that the Dominion has conquered not only Federation Space but also Romulan and Klingon. So I think Cardassia lies actually above the Federation and Klingons, etc. ( or below, of course ). But take a look if you like

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"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI


www.farrealms.de

[Hirlindale]

Great job on the map. It was similar to the one I created. But what has been getting me all confused are some of the said positions(both Cannon and LUG) of empires. Example: It is said(and shown) the Roms and Breen share a border. That the Cardassains and Breen share a border. That Ferengi space and Cardassian space border. But LUG says that the Romulans tolerate the Ferengi knowing they can conquer them at any time. According to Naug's statment in a DS9 episode(Little Green Men, I think) The Ferengi bought Warp drive from the Romulans. Since I know the Federation,Breen and Cardassians would not let Romulans cross thier space to explore I am lead to believe the Ferengi also border the Romulans. In addition to this in the DS9 episode "Way of the Warrior" 1/3 of the Klingon military taveled to DS9 to invade Cardassia. Sounds right because they need a staging point because Klingon space is on the other side of the Federation. But I believe some LUG stuff has said the Klingons fought an 18 year long war with the Cardies, which to me sounds like they share a border.
I find it very hard to draw a map of the galaxy let alone but locations of stars. I either get a Federation completely surounded by other races, with enclaves of "minor" races within the Federation (Gorn, Sheliak, Talarians)or I get somthing similar to yours with discrepancies. I feel the answer lies in raising (or lowering) some nations above (or below)the galactic plane. I however don't posses that level of three dimensonal thinking. Thanks for the Help so far, please continue to help with my dilema

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[SIR SIG]

*The SigMobile screeches to a halt*

Hey you want maps? Then you've come to the right place. The MapMaker has a special deal this week on Trek Maps.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fedsize/files/

My maps use canon info, real star data and LUG info based on sector references.

As for your 'kinda' specific questions:

1. Breen/Romulans: Lug says yes, I'd say in the general area.

2. Breen/Cardassians: Doubt it, judging the long distances from Breen space to carddie space in DS9. Although they would have territory within say 50-100 ly.

3. Cardassia/Ferengi: Don't actually share a border (see DS9 canon maps) but Ferenginar is about 65 ly from Bajor.

4. LUG Ferengi/Romulans: Hmmm, dont just remember that one, but I'd say no. Remember the long distances fromBajor to Romulus thus the hospital on Derna.

5. Warp/Ferengi: I think it actually is the Breen who sold the Ferengi the secrets to warpdrive.

6. Cardassia/Klingon: While not sharing a border as such. They do have 'interests' in the same general area. ie. the Betreka Nebula where they fought a 18 yr 'border war/skirmish' over colonization rights. (canon)

While my maps are 'strict' 2d, the federation does have access to space beyond the known powers. Albeit through through small gaps but..

So see my maps and then ask any questions you want.



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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[qerlin]

Hey, Sig...love that armor that just sorta pops into existance on your car. And who would expect it on a '79 Chevette?

Though I use Sig's latest, you idea of the Cardies being either Galactic north or south of the UFP, et. al. I like. It was the excuse I was using for why the Draconis Outback sat between Rommie and Cardie space, but shared a border with the Fed.

[This message has been edited by qerlin (edited 06-19-2001).]

[SIR SIG]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by qerlin:
Though I use Sig's latest, you idea of the Cardies being either Galactic north or south of the UFP, et. al. I like. It was the excuse I was using for why the Draconis Outback sat between Rommie and Cardie space, but shared a border with the Fed.
</font>

Woo Hoo a true believer.

Yeah but did LUG specifically say the DO shared borders with carddie/rommies and feds?

And where I have it, they are near carddie and feds and Breen. A fair ways from Rommies (100+ ly) and Klingon space a bit further.

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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[Hirlindale]

First I must say that you humble me oh Great Trek Cartographer I am most impressed by the vast resources you must have used on that map (State of the Powers). So let me start by saying I have many questions and comments. If you are offend by any let me apologize now for I am on a simple quest for knowledge and am not trying to challenge you sovereignty of the Cartography Kingdom. I some times put my foot in my moth by asking to many questions. I will number my questions/comments in an order similar to yours SirSig

1.Let me start by where I agree with you 100%. The Breen-Romulan border is how I envisioned it. Also your placement of the Gorn makes sense to me. Although I would have assumed that the Breen would have been encountered first and the Gorn second. According to The Price of Freedom, the Gorn and Feds met in 2267 and according to the time line in all our Yesterdays the Breen and Feds in 2275. But hay space is a big place and may be they just missed each other.

2.Now for the Breen-Cardassian border, I believe it to exist because of DS9. In the episode where the Breen join the Dominion, I believe Weyoun and Damar stated that they were headed to the Breen Border. This made sense to me since there appears to be much animosity between Cardassains and Breen. I assumed that’s how Zeeal (Dukat’s daughter, not sure on spelling) was captured by Breen raiders. According to your map that would mean that the Breen regularly cross Federation space to raid the Cardassians. I find it hard to understand why they would not have raided more Federation worlds. But if they did raid Fed worlds also then why did Starfleet not consider them a bigger threat until the Dominion War or at least have more experience with them.

3.Now for the Ferengi, The DS9 core rulebook says that Ferenginar is in the Bajor sector and so is Cardassia. I envisioned a square sector with each plane occupying one of the four corners, Bajor being closest to Fed space hence Bajoran Sector. I also notice you did not show any borders and had Ferenginar as a gray (which I assume means neutral/non-aligned) system. I must say thank you! For a long while I was trying to picture in my mind a Ferengi colony world. I could not see one other than a strip-mining colony or as a trading post. Since most colonies are started to ease over crowding, get dissidents out of the way or for scientific/industrial purposes. None of these seem like things a Ferengi Capitalist society would do. So I guess I would like to know in your map of the galaxy is Ferenginar truly the extent of Ferengi space (not Ferengi influence). But I guess that still doesn’t mean that they share a border (The “Burden of Proof” is on me big time there)

4.Okay now for the Ferengi-Breen-Romulan connection. I remember in the episode “Little Green Men” Naug said they bought Warp Technology from the Romulans, you have stated you remember them saying Breen. I have consulted my Trek encyclopedia and it says they never stated whom they bought it from. But as Narrators “what we don’t know we create”. So I will give my reasons for my Romulan Theory and my reasons against your Breen Theory. The Romulan Star Empire did not acquire warp technology until 2268 from their treaty with the Klingons. This in my opinion would give them a soft spot (As soft as a Romulan can be) for those races that warp has eluded. So the Romulans happen to come across this Ferengi race that they perceive as harmless but possibly useful as middlemen. They sell them warp and gain a possible cobelligerent in the harassment of the Federation by having a ultra greedy/capitalist society flying through space. This of course raises the question of how the Ferengi and Romulans met to begin with. If Ferenginar is located where you say it is then the Romulans had to travel across Federation to meet them. I have a real problem with that. Cloaked or not it is hard for me to believe their are cloaked Romulan ships that far from home exploring the unknown (Sent to do a mission I can believe.) This does however reveal a whole in the Breen theory as well. The Breen would also have to travel across Federation space to sell the Ferengi warp. I don’t see the Breen doing this. Although our knowledge of the Breen is limited it seems to me the Breen are mainly raiders and pirates. I can’t see Pirates coming across a trading society incapable of warp and selling it to them. They are much easier prey at sublight. Unless of course the Breen were looking down the road a hundred years saying “Let us sell this now so that the Ferengi may build a commercial empire and our descendants can raid its shipping for more profit”. Never the less I believe both our theories would suggest a Ferenginar closer to Breen-Romulan Space. This raises another problem, if you take into account my point from section three above, that the DS9 core rulebook says Bajor, Cardassia, and Ferenginar lay near each other then Cardassain space on your map would be in the wrong place.

5.Well I spoke of the Ferengi and Warp above.

6.The Klingons and Cardassian. I honestly believe that this may be a Cannon goof. Why would the Klingons commit 1/3 of their military strength so far from their own shared interests with Cardassian Union .I am not saying that it is crazy to send forces to put pressure on all fronts, But that’s one heck of a big force to concentrate on a front that wide an distant. Maybe there are some Military experts on the board here to correct me if I am wrong. But it does not sit well with me. Now if the Cardassians and Klingons don’t share a border then a huge build up for invasion at DS9 makes more sense to me. I must note that this would not be the first goof with Cannon goof with Klingons, remember the ridges are fairly new. Don’t get me wrong I am not disputing what has been said in Cannon about the Klingon-Cardassian war. I know the show said it happened but I am disputing if it realistically (I know it’s only a show) could have happen the way they said it did.

7.I would like to say again that you have done a remarkable job and none of what I have said is meant to offend or challenge you. They are just some of the questions and problems that I am trying to solve. I still believe an ultimate answer lies in a 3d map as I stated in my 2nd posting.

Thank you very much SirSig.
Your humble questionnaire Hirlindale

[Evan van Eyk]

Looks like SirSig agan saved the day

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"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI


www.farrealms.de

[SIR SIG]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hirlindale:
First I must say that you humble me oh Great Trek Cartographer I am most impressed by the vast resources you must have used on that map (State of the Powers). So let me start by saying I have many questions and comments </font>

Sucking up will get you everywhere

Preamble: With the exception of the Bajor Sector, everything is loosely defined on what canon info there is, LUG, real astro data and what insights I make to make it all make sense. It is after all a work in progress and any feedback both good/bad is needed for the growth of the project.

1)

a. Breen and Romulans do have some interaction.

b. Gorn are more there as a place holder. A previous version had the Breen and Gorn space kinda reversed and some people made comment. But yes Gorn space should be closer.

2)

a. Breen-Cardassian border I still think is a distant thing or perhaps a 'peninsula' of Cardassian space reaches near Breen space. I personally seem to feel from the series that there was a great distance involved.

b. Where Ziyal was held by the Breen is a small mine (dilithium?) on a misc. planet in the badlands. So the profit is worth the distance plus they are individual privateers so...

c. So from above, Breen can be well... anywhere within reason. And out the back of Cardassian space they share a border away from fed space?

3)

a. Ferengi and the 'Bajor Sector' see the email I sent you. Bajor-Ferengi is about 65 ly and Cardassia-Ferengi would be around 55 ly (haven't measured that one).

b. I use a sector grid overlay when plotting but use the cordinates (sector numbers) and political boundaries for the 'public'. And yes greyish is Neutral etc.

c. I would imagine the Ferengi control a number of systems around their home planet. But I only have info on Ferenginar so...

d. Size of 'controled' Ferengi space? I'd say 10-20 ly radius from Ferenginar isn't to optimistic!

4)

a. Ferengi and Warp? Who knows? Lets watch the episode again.

b. Thus with distances involved I'd say Breen but see above.

5)/ 6)

a. Klingons and Cardassians: Well some space very nearbye, say within 100-50 ly? Thus Betreka nebula and the invasion of Cardassian space.

b. While silly sometimes canon is canon unless it can be changed within reason.

All praise dutifully excepted

As before its a work in progress so argue any points and ask more questions.




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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[SIR SIG]

Plus some more recent canon info on the DMZ will involve most of all that 'out the back' carddie space to disappear.

So stay tuned for a new map in the coming days.

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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[Hirlindale]

SirSig thanks for the maps you sent, they did clear up alot for me. As my dear friend Roman once said "It's on TV, it can't be wrong". I had always envisioned the Cardassians north of the Federation on a 2d map. Your T.V. freeze frames settle it once and for all.
Now as for some suggestions oh Great One. My Impressions from Trek have been that the Physical size and military strength of the Alpha/Beta quadrents went as follows,
1.United Federation of Planets
2.Romulans Star Empire
3.Klingons Empire
4.Cardassian Union

I Believe that your Cardassian Union is a litte to big for me. I Had assumed that Cardassian space was smaller because of how devestated the DW and KW had made it. In the Klingon War if the Klingons struck through the Betreka Nebula and from DS9 then the "Eastern" part of Cardassian space would be devistated by War.
By the Dominion War much of the Focus would have been on retaking Federation space. When they did get it back, then presure again would have been on Eastern Cardassia, Near DS9 and Betazed, where intense fighting had been. Also to the North where Benzar is. After the War Nothern and Eastern Cardassian space would be Devistated. On your map this leaves a large south west largely untouched. Most Post war info says that the Cardassian Union lays in ruin. I would move that south west border so that it was more possible for the Alliance to Destroy Cardassian infrastructure.

Another question, your location of Antares is on the Romulan border. I don't believe the Romulans have gone that far. If they did how did they negotiate a new/continuation on the Federation/Romulan Nutral Zone.

One Final Question, Worf said that the Klingons had sent a fleet to coquer the Breen in the past. How did it get ther and not encouter Feds, Cardassains, Ferengi or Roms on the way. Any theories?

As Always Thank you for you time SirSig

[SIR SIG]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hirlindale:
SirSig thanks for the maps you sent, they did clear up alot for me. As my dear friend Roman once said "It's on TV, it can't be wrong". I had always envisioned the Cardassians north of the Federation on a 2d map. Your T.V. freeze frames settle it once and for all.

As Always Thank you for you time SirSig </font>

Well in most cases!

I'd agree with your list of powers for size and strength, perhaps with some overlay now after the DW.

As to the size of the Cardassian Union? Well it comes from 3 sectors on the Cardassian border that are that far out. (I use a specific spiral sector layout That Does Work).

But I have changed some other sectors numbers to a more logical place simply by rearranging the numbers or dropping a number in the hopes the writers got it wrong. (Always for the better).

SO off that size and the distance of Deneb I made a little theory up See 'Hey Fellas and Gals' thread in TrekChat for more on this

Basically what we see in the war maps is their core territory and the rest is what they 'claim' as the braggerts they are.

But more recently I came across a onscreen pic of part of the DMZ which puts it all over Bajor way. So like what I said to good old Styro, I'll be pumping out a new map this weekend.

As for size, I'd still have them approaching the Klingons in size; perhaps even 2/3?

As for Antares and the RNZ? Thats all come about from the LUG Romulan Box Set Map. It notes some real astronomical phenomenon that are 1000's of light years a way while 'almost' clearly indicating where Antares is. So I merged the 2 together and got that. (Definately open to interpretation)

2nd Klingon Empire and there invasion fleet to Breen? Well who's to say they didn't encounter anyone? The empire had fallen and was led by the council by 2069 TNG 'Rightful Heir'. So there are no Federation, Cardasians and others.

Also if you take the premise that the 'encounter suited' Breen look like the Hur'q. Then the Klingons would chase them down where ever they hail from.

Again it could have been a strong Breen Warlord with a 'Bandit Kingdom' in the Klingon area. That long ago Breen space may not have been in the same place it is now.

So all in all, the Klingons wouldn't have been 'really' crosses territory. Still their ships would have been hunks of junk that weren't fast. So maybe their was a local Breen outpost at the time?

As always this is a ongoing project. And witht the exception of the Bajor/DW area and Real Stars, the rest is just from scientific and canon principle with a smattering of logic

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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[Hirlindale]

Okay SirSig I though your T.V. Freeze frames would settle it. But I must tell you of somthing I found.
In most cases I have found that what you read in Star Trek books are simply not Cannon. However there is the Okuda exception.
Every thing that they have wriiten has been Cannon (Perhap because they work on the Show). I was looking through my Star Trek Encyclopedia today and looked up quadrents. There they showed a map of the galaxy, although crude it showed the major races. If you can picture it (Since I don't own a scanner to show you) Federation center, Klingons to the bottom right, Romulans up and to the right and Cardassains to the upper left. When I showed a friend this he reminded me that in the DS9 episode where Sisko and Garek trick the Romulans into the war. It is stated by someone that the Romulans have allowed the Dominion to make attacks through Romulan space on the Federation. Now I don't have this episode on tape to confirm this, but if you do you may want to look into it. Thses to things would tend to support my Romulan-Cardassaian border theory