Question about the Borg

[Mac417]

Okay, folks, time to tap your frontal lobes...

I'm running a Rapid Response series, and the player playing the team commander wants to take a Projectile Weaponry skill since he seems to be under the impression that the Borg have zero defense against projectile weaponry. He cites Picard mowing down the drones with a holosuite tommy-gun in "ST: First Contact." He further states that there is no way Borg drones could ever adapt to projectiles attacks, or in his words, "No one can 'adapt' to a bullet in the head."

My take on it is that Picard simply used a means of attack the Borg couldn't have possibly be adaptive to AT THE TIME. Were the Borg assailed by projectile weaponry over long enough a time, they could have easily adapted. As for his view that projectile attacks could never be adapted to, haven't we already seen that drones can project personal force fields? If all it takes is a an away team armed with Uzis (or the 24th century equivalent) to take out the Borg, that severely lowers their potential as villains.

Could someone give me some input on this subject? I'd really like to hear Steve and Don's opinions, but all are welcome.

--MAC

[calguard66]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mac417:
Okay, folks, time to tap your frontal lobes...

I'm running a Rapid Response series, and the player playing the team commander wants to take a Projectile Weaponry skill since he seems to be under the impression that the Borg have zero defense against projectile weaponry. He cites Picard mowing down the drones with a holosuite tommy-gun in "ST: First Contact." He further states that there is no way Borg drones could ever adapt to projectiles attacks, or in his words, "No one can 'adapt' to a bullet in the head."

My take on it is that Picard simply used a means of attack the Borg couldn't have possibly be adaptive to AT THE TIME. Were the Borg assailed by projectile weaponry over long enough a time, they could have easily adapted. As for his view that projectile attacks could never be adapted to, haven't we already seen that drones can project personal force fields? If all it takes is a an away team armed with Uzis (or the 24th century equivalent) to take out the Borg, that severely lowers their potential as villains.

Could someone give me some input on this subject? I'd really like to hear Steve and Don's opinions, but all are welcome.

--MAC</font>

I would agree to you except for one thing: Borg have been attacked repeatedly by primative kinetic energy weapons (bullets, swords, etc) and have NEVER adapted.

In First Contact the Borg adapt to a new phaser frequency after a few shots, and adapt more quickly each time.

However, Worf slices and dices through the while movie with no problem.

In my series the Borg have a "technology threshold", below which they don't recognize technology. You can also see this in Voyager where several societies maintain an artificially low level of technology so as not to attract the notice of the Borg.

On my player's ship there are racks of shotguns next to the phaser rifles, and exercises with boarding axes are SOP for the Security department.

------------------
"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[Don Mappin]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by calguard66:
I would agree to you except for one thing: Borg have been attacked repeatedly by primative kinetic energy weapons (bullets, swords, etc) and have NEVER adapted.</font>

Never? Dangerous word, that.

Offhand, aside from a few brief encounters in FC, I can't think of many (any?) other times where "primitive" kinetic attacks were the norm against Borg.

Mac, I agree with your original take on this that allowing projectile attacks to affect Borg without possibility of adaptation weakens their value as a villain. Without a doubt we know that Borg can establish personal force fields/shields, so after a few Borg fall to an Uzi I wouldn't envision that trick working for the remainder of that episode.

As always you should follow your own feelings on the matter as to what constitutes a good story.

I also would like to point out that even if you take the stance that the Borg can not adapt that is not where their true threat lies. It is their unrelenting pursuit and numbers. An away team armed with Uzis can shoot down 30 Borg but after that first wave there are another 970 right behind them. I doubt they have that much ammo on hand...

In any case, let the player take the skill and if the Borg do pop up in your series think what a wonderful little surprise you can unload on him.


------------------

[spyone]

Here's a way to reconcile a lot of stuff (and maybe steal from DUNE in the process ).

The Borg can produce a force field to stop incoming projectile weapons, if they have experience with it and are expecting such an attack. Basicly, not every Drone has a generator, but there is a supply in the Transporter Room of every Cube.
This shield only works on projectiles above a certain velocity. Slower thinks, like a bat'leth, are likely to go right through it. But supersonic bullets are stopped.

The stealing from DUNE part is that in DUNE there were personal defense screens that slowed incoming objects in proportion to their velocity. So, a very fast bullet would be slowed down a lot, but a slow moving hand would hardly be slowed at all.

------------------
You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[Lancer]

Another way to handle it would be to allow the borg forcefields only to be adapted to either energy or projectile weapons at the same time. Since energy weapons are much more common in the ST universe they usually keep the forcefields in energy-dispersion mode. A few casualties from kinetic attacks are sure acceptable to the Borg.

To make sure you can take out a borg you would then have to fire on it with both a projectile weapon and a phaser at the same time - on weapon will get through the force-field, regardless of the 'protection mode' the borg uses.
Lot of fun with the RR team leader insisting that everybody carries an M-16 and a bunch of frag grenades at all times and gets the proper training to use them, just in case the borg pay a surprise visit.

Plus, you need two gunners to make sure you take out a single Borg, which makes this tactic not overly usefull for a small rapid response team. (Unless of course the leader is Lt.Cmdr. Chow Yun Fat, fighting with an Uzi in one hand and a phaser in the other.)

------------------
"To seek, to strive, to find and not to yield" - Alfred Tennyson

[ComaBoy]

How about an M-16 with a phaser slung under the barrel a la a grenade launcher, shotgun or flashlight as is done today

[Calcoran]

Mind you, it might just be plain common sense. Of course the Borgs can adapt to anything that's thrown or has been thrown at them. But they'd end up looking like tanks to carry everything ... not the best shape of all when you are in a starship I guess.
Thus, the Borgs have probably already adapted to both blade-like weapons and any kind of firearm. However, since they are mostly interested in assimilating highly evolved, spacefaring civilisations, they probably leave the force fields generators adapted to those kinds of attacks in a specific storage room. No need to always wear them since they know that most encounters will be against energy weapons. Probably leaves space for another, more useful implant (I once played a cyborg game where you had to chose carefully what kind of programs and implants you were going to be wearing for the adventure). However, when they know they will be facing primitive weaponry, they'll probably all be equipped against that.

Soooo ... back on topic, if your players really want to figure out whether Borgs can adapt to kinetic weapons or not the hard way, let them kill 20, maybe 50 borgs, and then the next tactical drones will all be equipped with the proper force field generator . This way, you keep canon intact, and the Borgs remain fearsome.

------------------
Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms)

[Evan van Eyk]

Actually that's a strange topic in ST. The question is how do you want to adapt to projectile weapons. With Phasers they had the explanation, that the Borg adapt their shields to the phaser's frequency, but projectiles do not have frequencies.
But still in ST VII the Klingon's were able to adapt the Torpedo to the Enterprise' shield frequency and so could destroy it, so how should that work???

however in one DS9 episode Ezri uses a projectile weapon especially developed against the Borg, against an assasin. It beams the projectile through wall etc. so that there can be no obstacles. it was said that the design was not as good as the Compression Rifle ( the rifle of FC ) - why is not explained.
But there is no reason why this shiuld not work against the borg ( maybe it was the fire rate ) so this would be optimal. I would simply say that Borg can adapt ( perhaps with the help some subspace technology or gravity shields, which project gravity to repel the projectiles )to maintain canon, why Starfleet never used projectile weapons.

------------------
"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI


www.farrealms.de

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[Don Mappin]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan van Eyk:
Actually that's a strange topic in ST. </font>

Not really. This is no different than your typical force field. Worf made a personal force field using nothing more than a communicator in "A Fistful of Datas" that deflected bullets.

I believe that we can agree that the Borg can certainly do one better.


------------------



[This message has been edited by Don (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Captain Leana Craig]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan van Eyk:
In one DS9 episode Ezri uses a projectile weapon especially developed against the Borg, against an assasin. It beams the projectile through wall etc. so that there can be no obstacles. it was said that the design was not as good as the Compression Rifle ( the rifle of FC ) - why is not explained.
But there is no reason why this shiuld not work against the borg ( maybe it was the fire rate ) so this would be optimal. I would simply say that Borg can adapt ( perhaps with the help some subspace technology or gravity shields, which project gravity to repel the projectiles )to maintain canon, why Starfleet never used projectile weapons.

</font>

Evan
Ezri used a TR-116 rifle firing a duranium bullet. These weapons were designed for use on missions where radiation etc causes phaser malfunctions, but SF decided to go with regenerative phasers instead (go figure how will that help!). Anyhow the micro transporter and exographic targeting scanner are none-standard mods. Also its a bit hard to stun someone with a supersonic bullet(and you know how hard it is to get blood off your uniform )

Mac player seems to have forgotten that the rounds were [B]Holographic[B] and it only worked because nobody else had tried it (who else would)

PS the basic exographic scanner can be found on p117 of the players guide.

------------------
-------------------------
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges

"In time of war, the law falls silent"

Admiral Ross to Dr Bashir

[This message has been edited by Captain Leana Craig (edited 09-10-2001).]

[Dan Gurden]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan van Eyk:
however in one DS9 episode Ezri uses a projectile weapon especially developed against the Borg, against an assasin. It beams the projectile through wall etc. so that there can be no obstacles. it was said that the design was not as good as the Compression Rifle ( the rifle of FC ) - why is not explained. </font>

Incorrect, it was only suggested that the weapon was designed for use when dampening fields made Energy Weapons useless... And that the weapon was dropped as having no real practical purpose.

They never made any mention of the Borg...

Suspiciously so...


------------------
DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[Phantom]

Why not allow it? The shielding not working against kinetic weapons might explain a few of the races that have fought off the Borg. Just an idea.

------------------
In the Praetors Name!

[Captain Leana Craig]

I have just had a thought, I seem to recall that in a VOY episode about Seven's family tracking the borg they analyzed a tactical drone and I think it had internal armour. Assuming they send tactical drones when boarding a vessel the internal armour should stop most if not all the damage from a kinetic or muscle powered weapon. Does anybody else remeber this episode?

------------------
-------------------------
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges

"In time of war, the law falls silent"

Admiral Ross to Dr Bashir

[Phantom]

I believe they said it had dermal plating, ie armour. It is my impression that like all body armour it does not cover everything. So there could be areas that a bullet or bladed weapon could pass through. As best as I can remeber the episode.

------------------
In the Praetors Name!