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Thread: Question about the Borg

  1. #31

    Post

    That seems simple... Courage points are the domain of the Individual, and the source of the Borgs defeat...

    So my take on this is that Drones do not have Courage points at all... Zip, nil, nada...

    What they get in exchange is the ability to adapt to everything and access to the skill base through the collected knowledge of the Borg through the collective.

    Seems like a more than fair exchange to me.

    And should your crew get assimilated, the crew-membes courage points (which remain untouched by the collective) can be used to retain control long enough under assimilation...



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    DanG.

    "Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

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  2. #32
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    Red face

    But then again Borg are not without courage. The Borg seek absolute perfection and will assimilate any species who will add anything to that lofty goal.. Even if it isn't particularly smart (Example: Species 8472, and one might even say the UFP). When I think of the great peril and risk the Borg put themselves through daily in order to try to grasp the impossible I think it is very courageous indeed!

    The fact is I have always thought that their single-minded pursuit of unity and the absolute is an example the Federation should learn from. While I don't think that the Federation is all that fractious in nature, the Borg show that there is no substitute for unity in a cause. Individual heroics usually fail against the collective but cooperative action usually succeeds as long as all is cohesive. If individuals within a group can spend courage to assist in acheiving goals then whay couldn't the borg? Oh well, that's enough of that rant.

    In truth as far as the courage points issue goes I could see it either way. Sure, Borg drones have huge benefits but that by no means defines them as without courage. I mean just because you are full of nanites and implants that your innate luck or capability to create new things no longer exists.. Heck, maybe the Borg even have a way of harvesting courage points kind of like how the vinculum harvests individual thoughts. Who knows?

    At the same time, and mainly for the sake of game balance they probably should not. I mean it's just broken as crap to have the Borg as they are, they don't need more advantages.

    [This message has been edited by Klingermann (edited 09-18-2001).]

  3. #33

    Wink

    Well, its your game, and you should run it as you see fit, but my Borg, the scary ones without personality and highly focused to the blindness of all else, and inconsiderate of losses as inconsequential... Those guys in my game wont have Courage points...

    I still think that Courage points offer the squemish GM a get out clause for his players when they do something so astronomicly stupid that assimilation is the only recourse...



    ------------------
    DanG.

    "Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

    http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

  4. #34
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    Lightbulb

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dan Gurden:
    Hell I dare anyone to throw exactly the same punch twice in succesion, it might feel the same, but there willbe slight variations, that would alter things...

    That is why the Borg cant adapt to hand to hand, variation and low threat assesment.

    </font>
    Yet I think I remember that, in BOBW, when Worf rushes toward the freshly assimilated Picard, an energy barrier knocks him back, so Borgs can adapt to H2H combat - they simply prevent contact.

    However, since they need contact in order to assimilate (while I state that, I must warn you that VOY has not been aired yet in my country, so I rely only upon TNG and FC to say so - maybe now have we seen Janeway and Co face some assimilation beam in some episode I'll hopefully be given to see in a few years), they'll have to drop their forcefield eventually when they're close enough.

    In FC, they were busily clearing the crowd to reach Picard in the holodeck, so they had to drop their physical forcefield, and so Picard could gun them. Later, when Worf slashes a Borg, this Borg was trying to assimilate or kill him, so again he had to drop his physical forcefield.

    So, my suggestion : the Borg have indeed a shield preventing physical attacks, but they have to drop it when they fight. This could be a different shield from the one stopping enrgy attacks.
    That would make possible to kill Borgs with bullets weapons, blows, or blades, but only at close range - when they're closing for the assimilation. An interesting challenge for players IMHO.

    Yet again, do what you want - that was just an suggestion.

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  5. #35
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    Arrow

    In my series the Borg are nearly undefeatable. So it would be ok if one player would be able to shoot some Borg with a gun. If he survives this encounter I would let the next Borg recognize him and then adapt to this kind of attack. From my point of view no encounter with the Borg is as the one before. The Borg constantly evolve as the PC do.

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  6. #36
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    Post

    I have to agree with the idea of a nigh-invulnerable Collective. The whole Voyager plotline involving the Borg all but ruined them for me.

    The Borg Collective is a single entity... and that entity learns from its encounters with other species and phenomena. Consequently, even seemingly random patterns (i.e. phaser patterns, shield frequencies, etc.) can be identified and overcome.

    Additionally, it was stated in TNG that the Borg were a century or two ahead of the Federation technologically, so the computers used by the Borg could definitely overcome the "phaser frequency modulation" idea programmed into a ship's computer.

    If the Borg can identify and extrapolate the possible frequency patterns that a phaser might use, then I'd think that they could defend against a bullet, a fist, an arrow, or even a high-energy disruptor beam. The Borg are only incapable of adapting to things that are 1.) completely new and never before experienced by the Collective, 2.) beyond the comprehension of the Collective (i.e. the Q, the Douwd, etc.), or 3.) a randomization that they cannot adjust to quickly enough (i.e. Lt. Cmdr. Data reprogramming the phasers faster than the Collective could adapt).

    I used to fear and admire the Borg, but now it seems that a kid with a puppy could take out a cube, and that ruins the inhuman menace of the Collective for me.

    mactavish out.

  7. #37
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    Post

    I'm of the camp that agrees that the Borg should be neigh unstoppable, barring innovative thinking and usage of many, many Courage points.

    They have the ability to adapt to any new situation that is comprehendable. Projectile slugs? Gun down two drones and the rest will have nanoprobe-generated armor that deflects bullets. Slow-moving bat'leth? Even if you manage the contested roll of Fitness + Primitive Weaponry (Bat'leth) vs the drone's Fitness + Unarmed Combat, after one or two drones, they'll adapt and get some other nifty defense against the attack.

    Voyager got us all into the mindset that the Borg can be destroyed. As a GM, I prefer to keep them far-away but ominous and incredibly dangerous, always lurking coreward and antispinward from the Federation.

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  8. #38
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    Post

    I would/will use it this way:

    Sure, the borg can adapt to a projectile. Only problem is, a gunpowder weapon changes charakteristics every round. So while Drone 4711 has adapted to a round fired, the next round is slightly different and kills Drone 0815 flat out. And railguns (aka Gaus rifles) can use fine varieties in speed etc too. Not to forget differences in bullets.

    Differences in bullets? Aren't they all identically when they come from the replicator? Yes - when they come from the replicator. Which they don't. Surely StarFleet wouldn't store the parameters for a lethal-only slug thrower in the replicator. So weapons and ammo have to be aquired by other means.

    I would keep the weapons rare or even antique. With all the problems assorted (Lt. Com. Hartmann might have a H&K G3A6 that has been in "the family" since his ancestor served in the UN task force)

    If the group starts replicating the stuff, varieties get to small (Used materials are to good - Duranium instead of steel for the barrel i.e) to get them enough variety and the Bjorns er Borgs can adapt.

    Oh, and I won't supply the idea to the players. Let them find out on their own.

    Michael

  9. #39
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    The only caution that I have is that "Nigh-Unstoppable" isn't unstoppable.

    This is Star Trek after all, and in the end, the good guys must win.

    they always do. They may have set backs, and people may die, but in the end, the Federation (the good guys, or white hats) always end up victorious.

    To me, it's one of the fundamental tenants of Star Trek that comes out of it's Western roots (Wagon Train to the Stars after all). The white hats always win.

    So, while the Borg (or any other enemy) should be tremendously scary, and dangerous, it shouldn't be invincible. For instance, no nano-probe based gaseous assimilation devices.

    There has to be a countermeasure.
    ____

    If you want to explain why the Borg now seem more vulnerable to physical weapons post First Contact vs their TNG counterparts, then try this:

    The TNG Borg had to use equipment to assimilate their victims. The First Contact Borg got to use their cool Nano-probes.

    Apparently, in the intervening time, the Borg assimilated a species that taught them how to use the nano-probes.

    So, now the Borg have Nano-probes. But, in order to use the Nano-probes, the Borg have to get in close. And touch the opponent. Which makes them have to lower their shields, the time in which they are vulnerable.

    So, in order to use your projectile weapon, you have to let them get in close, where they're dangerous. You can't blow them away from a distance. They'll have their shields up.

    Alex

  10. #40
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan van Eyk:

    however in one DS9 episode Ezri uses a projectile weapon especially developed against the Borg, against an assasin. It beams the projectile through wall etc. so that there can be no obstacles. it was said that the design was not as good as the Compression Rifle ( the rifle of FC ) - why is not explained.
    </font>
    I do not recall the anti-Borg nature of this weapon's origins being supported in canon, and the "micro-transporter" was a modification to an existing weapon design. O'Brien figured out that you could shoot a man through the wall by beaming the bullet in to solve how the killer was killing people who were alone in locked rooms.

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  11. #41
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by StyroFoam Man:

    Water-guns full of some type of acid might be another idea that could buy a few moments for escape...

    And don't make the mistake of saying the acid would eat the plastic... As DanG did...

    After all, I know plastic...


    </font>
    Yep, all acids have a thing or tow they won't eat through. And from my brief study of chemistry, I can tell you that HydroFlouric Acid will not dissolve flourine-based plastics.

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  12. #42
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SIR SIG:
    Okay then is the atypical drone's adaption shield vs energy?

    IIRC they have never used these 'shields' in hand to hand combat before.

    It may be a simple extension to imply projectiles that are not energy based would be the same.

    Thus the Dermal armour to take this kinda physical damage.

    </font>
    See my (far)above comments about how bullets are different from hand-to-hand weapons. Basicly, the shields stop only objects above a certain speed threshold, or provide resistance to penetration proportional to the kinetic energy of the object.
    Sort of like kevlar: great at stopping bullets, not so great against knives.

    my brother also points out that shields MUST be effective against purely physical objects, or else shield-penetrating kinetic-kill projectiles would be the ship-to-ship weapon of choice.

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    You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
    abundant typos repaired

    [This message has been edited by spyone (edited 09-28-2001).]

  13. #43

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  14. #44
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    Talking

    Yeah I can see it now.. The collective running in terror from a newly re-trained federation security task force armed to the teeth with super soakers!

    I'm just having difficulty with this concept, not sure why though.

    I know it's a joke, but if in all seriousness you wanna make the borg a bunch of cybernetically-enhanced ragdolls with neat toys (like nanoprobes and transwarp) that your crew can easily take and use with impunity that's your business. I personally see more potential in making them dang near impossible to stop and simply not worth getting within long-range sensors of, though they might make for a pretty picture to taunt from a cozy astrometrics bay.

    IMHO, don't let Voyager fool you into thinking the Borg are a joke that can be used for cheap plot devices and cool tech in fact the exact opposite view would be most appropriate. As Guinan so eloquently put it:

    "The borg view individuals as resources.. Diplomatic relations with them would not be advisable."

    Nuff' said!

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