DWS

[Cochrane]

Are we getting annoying, Steve? Surely you get tired of thanking us for our praise over and over. But I guess with so many of us with such convincing words, we can't be wrong about your talent.

[Steve Long]

Praise and thanks are never annoying, Cochrane. Trust me.

[Perrryyy]

I've only scratched the surface of DWS so far, but from what I've seen I've been pleased with it.

I do have one question though?

Where are the blueshirts? Surely one cannot dismiss the role Jadzia or Ezri or Bashir played in helping to bring a resolution to the war.

As I said, I've only skimmed it so it's entirely possible I missed a whole chapter (or 5).

Thanks in advance.

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Impossibilities are merely things which we have not yet learned. — Charles W. Chesnutt

[Bill Harris]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Perrryyy:

Where are the blueshirts? Surely one cannot dismiss the role Jadzia or Ezri or Bashir played in helping to bring a resolution to the war.
</font>

There's at least two mentions of Bashir. One regarding his being kidnapped and replaced by a Changeling just prior to the Cardassian-Dominion alliance. The other deals with how he went about obtaining the cure to the Founder disease.

[CmdrBluejeans]

So far, the only item in the book that makes me pause and scratch my head is the section on pre-war/post-war fleet totals.

I am having a hard time reconciling the old standard of Starfleet having lost "8%" of its ships at Wolf 359 with the 8000+ ships cited for the start of the Dominion War in DWS.

Unless I am missing something, this means a 12:1 increase in capital ships (with 39 ships as 8%, we're talking around 500 ships, and with 70% of the 8800 ships mentioned in DWS as capital ships, we're talking 6000 or so capital ships). This means that even if the 8% estimate doesn't include not-yet-crafted small-but-named ships like the Danubes and the Talons, or ships that were decommissioned prior to Wolf 359 but pressed back into service afterwards, or named-but-not-combat ships like tugs and tenders nad transports, there's still *way* too much of a discrepency to be explained by the Norway, Saber, and Steamrunner classes. :P

Anyone got any ideas? *Am* I misreading this? Steve, let me know where your head is on this if you can spare the minute or two for a commentary?


BJ

[Karg]

I've skimmed thru the book and i love what i've seen so far, but i do have one comment.

I'm a little suprised at the Federation's reaction to the Breen! Just a treaty to not wage war on the AQ is pretty light. I'd have asked for territorial concessions and trial for war crimes. Hell, They bombed 4 cities on the capital planet and 2 of the cities were just for attacks on Civilians, I'd say thats worthy of war crimes.

Karg

[This message has been edited by Karg (edited 05-10-2001).]

[Steve Long]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Where are the blueshirts? Surely one cannot dismiss the role Jadzia or Ezri or Bashir played in helping to bring a resolution to the war.</font>

Unfortunately, there's only so much I can cover in a survey volume. Delving into the specific contributions of each branch of the service wasn't really where I wanted to go, given everything else I had to cram into the book. The military-oriented men/branches did the bulk of the work, so they got the bulk of the coverage. But a look at the other branches might be a good subject to address at some future point.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Anyone got any ideas [re: fleet sizes]? *Am* I misreading this? Steve, let me know where your head is on this if you can spare the minute or two for a commentary?</font>

You're not misreading anything. There's no logical explanation for the differences in the figures; it has to do, I'm sure, with the perspectives of the writers on the various series (which to some extent mirror the Federation perspective at those times). In TNG, a loss of 39 ships at once is enormous, catastrophic, heartbreakingly terrible. But DS9 shows us battles featuring far more destruction than that. My numbers, based off a comment from one of the Ricks (Berman or Sternbach) that I read somewhere, reflect the DS9 reality.

The easiest explantion I can think of to reconcile things is that my figures have been right all along (except for a potential buildup after encountering the Borg and Romulans in the mid-2360s), but that the Wolf 359 disaster was the biggest single loss of ships in the UFP up until that time. After all, the previous wars were all pretty low-key, at least in my estimation. Given that perspective, the loss of 39 ships at once is devastating and awful, even if you've got thousands of others left.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Just a treaty to not wage war on the AQ is pretty light. I'd have asked for territorial concessions and trial for war crimes.</font>

Yes, but you don't come from a utopian society. The way I see it, UFP doesn't want anyone else's territory, or to inflict all kinds of punishment on people after a war ends, or the like. They just want everyone to live and let live. They got their treaty concessions and their reparations, and they'll stick with that rather than stir up even more negative feelings and potentially bias former enemies (hoped-for future allies) against them for decades to come.

But, as always, it's your game. If you want some war crimes trials and other juicy goodness, go for it! I can see a whole bunch of episode possibilties inherent in that, for sure.

Steve Long

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[OMEGA4]

Thank you Don, Steve, and all those involved for the DWS. Another excellent resource tome.

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Valar Morghulis

[CmdrBluejeans]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Steve Long:
Yes, but you don't come from a utopian society. The way I see it, UFP doesn't want anyone else's territory, or to inflict all kinds of punishment on people after a war ends, or the like. They just want everyone to live and let live. They got their treaty concessions and their reparations, and they'll stick with that rather than stir up even more negative feelings and potentially bias former enemies (hoped-for future allies) against them for decades to come.

But, as always, it's your game. If you want some war crimes trials and other juicy goodness, go for it! I can see a whole bunch of episode possibilties inherent in that, for sure.

Steve Long</font>

I note that one of my ideas for a campaign after I finish The High Frontier was a game set at Starbase G-6 (the closest pre-DS9 starbase I can find to the Cardassian border in the canonical record) or one of the 2xx Starbases listed by you, Steve, in the ST S9 core rulebook (211 or 257, as I recall) in the days immediately after the first Fed-Card war, in the mid-to-late 60s, right around the time Ben Maxwell went renegade. The game would focus around the efforts to 'follow up' on the cease fire with the Cardassians with a second round of treaty talks, and would include war crimes tribunals and courts-martial for officers accused of war crimes between 2358 and 2366. It would have its Defiant-like starship support from the protoype Yorkshire-class Armored Transport, used to move prisoners and diplomats alike.

Of course, I'm *known* to be crazy and like very confrontational court-martial episodes. Ask my players.


BJ

[Robbert Raets]

A stomach full of Latinum for Steve Long, not only for the DWSB, but for all the creative work he has done!

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Your past does not excuse unethical or immoral behavior, sir.
- Data, to Kivas Fajo, the most toys

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

I would like to add my thanks to Steve and Don for the DWS. I finished printing it off earlier this evening and it will give me a dose of inspiration over the next few days as I get back to my old schedule and into Trek gaming.

Though I do have one question Steve. In Spacedock the damage increases in increments of 20 points as one examples the strength of each phaser type. Type One being 20 to Type XII being 240. I have always presumed that this progression would continue as such so that a Type XIII would be 260 and so on.

Yet, in the DWS Spacedock writeup of the Mars Defense Perimeter Platform states that Type XV phasers do 250 points damage only ten points more then a Type XII.

Is this just a simple error that crept in or if not could you please explain your reasoning behind the change in progression?

Thanks,
CKV.

[Steve Long]

I think that's just an error. Use the Emplaced Phasers Table on p. 84 to determine the damage.

Steve Long

[Dan Gurden]

I found the first image of this vessel at the same time as downloading the DWS, the images were on http://forums.scifi-art.com/.

So here it is, a new Romulan ship that I now mentally picture as an equivalent to the T'Korex Warbird in the Dominion War Sourcebook, but stats need to be forthcoming...

http://morrison.easynet.fr/~scifiart...rchanweb01.jpg

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Dan.

"A couple of thoughts from a random mind!"

[This message has been edited by Dan Gurden (edited 05-15-2001).]

[Fortunae]

This regards the above discussion about W-359 and the loss of the fleet there and the seeming dichotomy between that and the fleets bandied about in the Dominion War.

The series (ST:TNG) and DWS both touched on the relatively "peaceful" period from the events of "The Undiscovered Country" to the Start of the TNG series..sure there had been several "Border Wars" but no *real* war like the Klingon's had planned for the Federation in the previous century, for a Loooong time.

With the change from the Kirk-Cowboy style to the Picard-Diplomacy style of Starfleet, it's reasonable that Starfleet focused on larger vessels that could sustain prolonged exploration phases and smaller vessels to handle patroling and what not...so a fleet that truly matched the size of the Federation wasn't as important. I would expect that during this "Golden Age" a large segment of Starfleet personnel served on Outposts and Starbases where light warp craft could serve their needs...and there was alot of planetary survey missions where a team was dropped off and picked up months or a year later. This would make getting a berth on a an actual Explorer a really heady and sought after experience, but would keep plenty of Starfleet people across the Federation securing the peace and even governing the horde of the colonies that resulted from the Replicator as commonplace expansion period.

So then in the course of the early period of Picard's Enterprising era, the Romulans showed back up after a near half century absence, Maxwell broke the cease-fire, and Q introduced the Federation to the Borg. Starfleet Command was infiltrated by an alien group that was almost successful in taking over Star Fleet; the Ktarians tried to take over the Federation with a Video Game! The Klingons had as series of power struggles that nearly upset the balance of peace in the two quadrents.

Starfleet started making preparations to deal with the new era of unrest, but it didn't do it with vigor -- more ships were built and designed but it didn't really strike close to home as it *should* have. (The PDD and Defiant Projects as examples).

The Borg showed up *early*. Starfleet wasn't ready for the directness and overpowering strength of the Borg. What seemed to some like a boogie man at best, or an overrated and distant threat was suddenly in Federation space, destroying the largest colletion of ships the Federation has fielded in one place since probably the last Klingon War in the previous century, and about to assimilate earth.

Suddenly play time was over, those who before had railed that all these projects were contrary to the ideals of Starfleet now screamed that they weren't enough and why wasn't more being done. The Federation was *afraid* for the first time in a long time. Ships started rolling out of the shipyards at a never before seen pace...Starfleet personnel started stepping aside for civilian governors of colonies and staffing at Starbases so they could fill the slots on the new ships -- one could expect that transfers up from the ADF and Merchant Marines became more common then before.

The Dominion is discovered and they are hostile and technologically superior -- more ships, more and more ships with smaller crew requirements then the stately explorer craft of just a decade before pour out with new crews. Akira's carry *Fighters*, Sabers pack Cruiser punch in a Escort Size vessel as do the Defiants. These new ships don't look graceful as much as they look ready to rumble.

The Fleets are at a size now *never* seen in Federation history, vessels are being rebuilt from Mothball storage at the various shipyards, Enlisted Crewmen are taking the role of department heads on smaller vessels so they can spread the officers around more...more Chiefs are being made Warrent Officers then ever before.

The War breaks out, the Borg return, the Federation fights and fights and thousands of highly trained people, the creme de la creme in fire or icy vaccum. According to the DWS the academy training program is shortened from a 4 year class room 1 year space hands on, to a 4 to 6 month course and direct commission for OFFICERS -- one might guess that Enlisted training goes from it's once year long period to a 6 week to 2 month rushed program...standards fall and now children are dying because there aren't enough seasoned officers to staff the vessels that still roll out from the shipyards without any sign of stopping.

Captains were Lieutenants a few years ago, Ensigns lead wings of fighters, Lt.Commanders who still have Academy Fuzz on their cheeks command PDD developed vessels alongside Grizzled old Merchant Marine Captains who have been boosted up to command Starfleet vessels.

To me this isn't so disimilar to the post World War I to World War II build up in the United States...I don't see a *conflict*, what I see is over a period of about 14 years Starfleet and the Federation having to make radical changes to survive in an entirely different climate and barely managing to do that.

Well, that's how I see it anyway. Peace.