DWS

[SIR SIG]

Certainly an interesting approach to the whole ship debacle Fortunae.

But perhaps an easy approach is that Shelby's comment that the fleet will be back up in a year is exactly that; 'A Fleet'.

One of many fleets; sure the 39 ships that 'died' was one of the biggest blows to the Federation in recent times and thus the loss was felt harder then others.


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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[lordk2001]

First, let me say that my hat is off to Steve and the others involved with DWS. This could easily have been a published product...its already better edited than a lot of "pro" products I've seen recently. Quite impressive job.

That said, it just doesn't work for me. The 8000+ ship fleet is a fine example; yes, one of the Ricks said it. Yes, there may have been a throwaway line or two. However, that number is simply beyond ludicrous. Its a number that's a result of the "bigger is better" school of drama.

The casualties are another example: 22 million dead in the Breen attack on Earth, 75 million on Betazed. More human beings died in one day (or perhaps that week due to the power outages and privations, but the text is unclear) than at any point in human history save World War 3, and even then we're not sure. 99% of those had to have been civilians...that's more dead in 24 hours than the Soviet Union lost in five years during WW2. Nearly a billion dead on Cardassia. Even in Utopia, that doesn't result in a peace treaty that only asks for war reperations, a promise not to do it again, and pre-war boundaries with Breen. That's a jihad, a holy war, a crusade to last generations that wont end until ever vestige of those responsible are wiped from the universe.

Sorry, those numbers just aren't even close to believable.

[Steve Long]

I disagree with that completely. I think you are underestimating the effectiveness of 24th century weapons and methods. We know, for example, that the Jem'Hadar slaughtered 800 million Cardassians and leveled plenty of Cardassian cities -- in the space of a few hours. I find it not at all unbelievable that a sneak attack on Earth by a determined enemy hitting four major population centers could rack up 22 million deaths, or that a months-long occupation of a planet by the Jem'Hadar could result in 75 million deaths. In fact, given the Dominion's response to the Cardassian resistance, arguably it would have murdered a lot more Betazeds while fighting their resistance.

But as always, it's your game. Change whatever you like.

Steve Long

[Dan Stack]

Regarding the treaty at the end...

Even removing noble intentions, for practical reasons it stands to reason the Federation would not dictate too harsh a treaty. For several reasons...
1) Star Trek does show that humanity has learned the lessons of its past. The terms imposed on Germany at the end of WWI all but guaranteed some form of a WWII. Did the Federation want a second Dominion War a decade or two down the road.

2) The Dominion is lead by paranoid xenophobes. What better way to play into that mistrust than a harsh treaty?

3) Could the Federation occupy enemy territory long term? Betazed, Earth, and countless other Federation worlds need to be rebuilt. Starfleet strenth has been sapped by the war. Would the Federation even have the resources to patrol occupied territory in the Gamma Quadrant, Breen Space, etc. I imagine it would have no choice but to take place in the occupation/rebuilding of Cardassia. That alone would stretch Federation resources.

Just my opinion. Your mileage may (and should) vary.


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U.S.S. Icarus

[mactavish]

I think the biggest reason that the UFP would avoid pursuing harsh penalties against the Dominion relates directly to the core of the Star Trek ideal.

It's been mentioned here a number of times, but once again the Federation in general and humanity in particular has learned a great deal about diplomacy and conflict since the 21st century. Mankind is no longer interested in the acquisition of territory by force, nor is the UFP interested in going overboard in punishing their enemies.

The Federation, in all its enlightened glory, realizes that the Dominion was truly interested only in protecting themselves. The manner in which they chose to do so (including the slaughter of billions of innocents) is a point of concern and contention, but (unlike the Romulans and the Klingons) the Federation is considerably more understanding and interested in mutual cooperation and assistance than the Dominion, the Cardassians, and the Breen.

It is my belief that, despite the undoubtedly vocal protestations raised by their former allies, the Federation would protect Cardassia from foreign aggression and assist them in rebuilding. The Federation is a socioeconomic utopia; the [majority of] the leadership wants only to return to a relatively normal life, not to punish a defeated foe.

There are those in the UFP and Starfleet hierarchies that are likely interested in reparations, occupation of Dominion space, and possibly imprisonment of all Founders, but it is likely that they level-headed leadership would triumph.

This is shown time and again in Star Trek... hostility and paranoia lead to self-destruction. The Federation has achieved a "higher ideal" (for the most part).

mactavish out.

[Bill Harris]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lordk2001:
The casualties are another example: 22 million dead in the Breen attack on Earth, 75 million on Betazed. More human beings died in one day (or perhaps that week due to the power outages and privations, but the text is unclear) than at any point in human history save World War 3, and even then we're not sure. 99% of those had to have been civilians...that's more dead in 24 hours than the Soviet Union lost in five years during WW2. </font>

I think the problem is thet you're using 20th century thinking on a 24th century situation. But even using today's weapons, it would be very easy for 20 million to die in one swift attack. Just two nuclear devices detonating over Tokyo and New York could kill that number in a New York minute. (no pun intended)

Now consider that weapons such as photon torpedoes are even MORE devastating than today's nuclear weapons. (The complete annihilation of matter and antimatter releases a hellacious amount of energy when compared to inefficient fusion bombs.) The fact that the death toll was as low as 22 million tells me that even when caught flat footed, Earth was able to get some of their space defenses on line.

[calguard66]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bill Harris:
I think the problem is thet you're using 20th century thinking on a 24th century situation. But even using today's weapons, it would be very easy for 20 million to die in one swift attack. Just two nuclear devices detonating over Tokyo and New York could kill that number in a New York minute. (no pun intended)

Now consider that weapons such as photon torpedoes are even MORE devastating than today's nuclear weapons. (The complete annihilation of matter and antimatter releases a hellacious amount of energy when compared to inefficient fusion bombs.) The fact that the death toll was as low as 22 million tells me that even when caught flat footed, Earth was able to get some of their space defenses on line.

</font>

I agree. If anything, the death toll from the Breen attack is too low. A single antimatter bomb into the LA basin would kill almost that many today...

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[Captain Blake]

My guess would be that the Breen weren't actually trying to do anything remotely resembling targeting civilians. They targeted buildings, and monuments, and infrastructure, not people.

22 million people isn't a whole lot, all things considered. It could, and perhaps should have been worse.

A

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

My thanks to all involved with the DWS, amazingly well written with editing better than retail books. I've read it over twice now and so have my players and we have one question.

Why were the ground forces so few in number? I mean 250,000 troops seems like a very small amount, or even 1,000,000 for the Cardassians. If their are billions of citizens in a government, wouldn't the number be higher? The Cardassians with their war oriented society could have drafted every single able bodied Cardassian from the human age of 18 to 49(not aware of Cardassian lifespans).

Otherwise I love the book.

[Steve Long]

I chose to make the Ground Forces small in number because I felt that was commensurate with the way they were depicted on the show. In the 30-odd year history of Star Trek, we've only seen ground troops in action once or twice; most engagements have been space-based. I chose to explain this, in part, by making the Ground Forces small compared to the navies.

If you'd prefer higher (or, as some might put it, more "realistic" numbers), the number of troops is an easy enough detail to change for your series.

Steve Long

[aroberts]

Hi,
I know I am perhaps beating the same drum as others, but I just wanted to express my personal thanks for the work done on these books. I was gleefully surfing the internet last weekend when I came across these three books (DWS, Spacedock, and SFRM)for the first time. They're all just fantastic. I spent 2 days reading and re-reading them. I have several other Last Unicorn Star Trek RPG books, and I'd have to say these three were definatley the coolest (though all of Last Unicorn's stuff was of superb quality). Thanks again for distributing these!

I'm just curious, are there any plans for releasing other books like these?

Best Regards,
Alex

[Steve Long]

For various legal/IP reasons, none of the other books planned or created by Last Unicorn are going to be released. Somewhere here on the boards there's a FAQ that provides some additional details.

I have some other Ship Recognition Manuals waiting in the wings, however. Two, Cardassians and Klingons, are complete, and will be released once (a) I clarify and/or agree on some things with my current employer (Decipher), and (b) they are laid out, etc. I have a couple others -- TOS Era and Romulans -- in a half-completed state. Several others are planned, as well as some companion material for the DWS and various other tidbits.

Steve Long