Ambassador Downgrading?

[CmdrBluejeans]

I've been a little curious for awhile now about the whole concept of ships being 'downgraded' in class. We see this in Spacedock with the Ambassador-class Explorer being downgraded to a Heavy Cruiser, based on the explanation that as Starfleet technology advanced, and its exploration needs changed, the Ambassador simply couldn't keep up with the times.

I'm curious, though, as to why a Heavy Cruiser rather than, say, an Exploratory Cruiser. It seems to me that a vessel that formerly was an Explorer, if downgraded to a Cruiser-type vessel at all, would clearly be at least as well adapted for scientific exploration as, say, a Constellation or Excelsior-class ship.

Anyone care to open a dialogue on this with me? I'm not looking to argue for its own sake, just to bat around the whys and wherefores until it makes sense to me. The philosophy behind these minutiae is oddly important to me, you see.


BJ

[SIR SIG]

Hmmm.. We have an explorer coming off the line in 2322. Buy 2370's its a Heavy Cruiser, superceded by Galaxy, Intrepid, Sovereign and the other explorer.

Obviously outclassed by upwards of 3 decades worth of tech.

Could it be that it simply doesn't fit the bill anymore? Galaxy is the Ambassador's direct replacement. A bigger, newer, more versatile class.

IMHO the Ambassador is a little more overtly armed then say a Galaxy. Keep in mind the Tomed Incident and the later Cardassian War. She was definately a 'deterrant' ship first, explorer second.

Reason for downgrading?

Clearly outclassed and superceded.

Coming up on their 50 year overhauls, which is probably over half their lives maybe 3/4's?

Cheaper to refit her as a cruiser (especially size way) then uprate her to a 1st line explorer.

Hmmm. What say you?

------------------
'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

[Sarge]

But if Ambassadors were effective combat vessels, why didn't we see any in the big Dominion battles on DS9? Maybe they were all just offscreen, but I don't find that explanation very satisfying.

------------------

<<<<

LUGTrek isn't really dead. Not as long as we remember it.

[Roxby]

briefly off-topic:

That was one of the sole disappoinments, for me, during the final seasons of DS9. I think the Ambassador would have been an excellent choice for Starfleet's involvement in the Dominion War.

I wonder if somebody tripped over the model and broke it or something. I don't understand why they wouldn't have used it, esp. given that it is a newer design than both the Excelsior and the Miranda variants.

I would have liked to have seen a greater variety of vessels on screen.

rant over. sorry. back on topic.

[Gemini]

A similar question came up during the "design phase" of the campaign that I will be launching in a couple of months. I came up with the following to explain the disappearance of certain older classes of ships during the last seasons of DS9.

1. Ambassadors and Constellations seem to be fairly rare, especially when compared with Excelsors and Mirandas. This can be explained by noting that Ambassadors and Constellations were designed specifically as exploration ships and were produced in limited numbers. On the other hand, Excelsiors and Mirandas are general use designs and were mass produced.

2. Starfleet deployed most of its combat capable ships to the front during the Dominion War, but still needed to patrol the other borders of the Federation. The Ambassador class was well-suited for this mission. It is well-armed and can operate independantly for long periods of time.

3. Older ships would have been assigned to secondary roles during the war to free more modern ships for front-line combat. DS9 showed Excelsiors and Mirandas used as escorts for more advanced ships (such as the Defiant). Other ships would have been used to escort supply convoys and patrol rear-line areas. Ambassadors might have been used to protect high-value assets like antimatter shipments.

Incidently, I recall reading somewhere that the Ambassador model was damaged while being moved. I believe that one of the nacelles was crushed while the model was sitting in a crate.

[SIR SIG]

Good points, though as Sarge said, not satisfying.

Maybe she was meant to be there and just didn't see it. Can anyone say for sure, there were a lot of ships in those big fleets.

But she also may have been on other lines as since it would be the biggest fish left in the pond other then the war front.

------------------
'...The Borg have stopped at deck 10...'
'...Deflector Control, no vital systems...'

Not a vital system! What the heck do you think stops the ship going 'poof' every time it goes to warp?

- ST:First Contact; Lt Hawk

[SIR SIG]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Leana Craig:
For those Ambassador Class lovers out there, in the DS9 pilot, an Ambassador can be clearly seen attacking the cube at Wolf 359.

I agree it is a pity it was not shown more.</font>

Old news unfortunely.

There have been a number of Ambassador sitings throughout TNG. As for the Dominion War???


------------------
SIR SIG

More then meets the eye,
His a MapMaker in disguise.

[Captain Leana Craig]

For those Ambassador Class lovers out there, in the DS9 pilot, an Ambassador can be clearly seen attacking the cube at Wolf 359.

I agree it is a pity it was not shown more.

[toadkiller]

I'm not sure why the conventional wisdom is that the Ambassador should be "old" - we still see the Excelsior class as well as Miranda's playing core roles in the fleet. I'd mark the "downgrading" to the PTB's attempt to make sure the Galaxy class is special and not "just another explorer class" for TNG. Also Yesterday's Enterprise pretty much required that the "old" E be considered "less special" than the new one. If the Excelsior and the Galaxy classes are intended for century + design lives I'd think the Ambassador's would be too. I play the Ambassador as a proven design, not cutting edge (but with decent upgrades post Dom war) but certainly in the prime of its operational life. I'm currently assigning them (in the background but my PC's are coming up for commands of their own and are looking around) as flagships for border fleets and well, as "ambassadors" for diplomatic missions alongside their Galaxy cousins. (My game is post-war and long range exploration missions are very rare right now).

Ramblings of Toadkiller

[JALU3]

Here, here! Especially with the force deficiancy that plagues the Federation right now, exploration is the least of the Federations worries. The Romulan's are still relatively strong, reconstruction of the CU (much like Europe post WWII) is a major concern, the outer sectors are starting to ask questions, especially those who were conquered during the DW, and the Orion Syndicate seems to have grown in leaps and bounds during the war.

The Ambassador is a good, well proven vessel, the only problem, and the reason why you don't see them much is that they weren't mass produced. As stated by others, the Ambassador weren't mass produced, for they were specifically designed for certain missions, unlike the Excelsiors and Mirandas which were designed to be the work horses of the fleet. Sure the Excelsior did have their hey day as explorers but that was short lived due to design flaws (IMHO) that didn't lend to those LONG (5+ years) missions.

But what was once the production slot for Ambassadors, has been now been taken up by Nebulas which are far more moduler in design, thus better equiped to take up the roles that the Ambassador once filled. The only 'older' designs that I still see in production is the Niagra class, but even that is being phased out.

But I don't know what to the think about the Norway class, if anything, I see it taking up the role that the Miranda's did, cargo haling, quite boarder sectors, inner patrol.

------------------
"Your job is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."
-Patton

"Like my father said, never start a fight, but always be sure to finish it."

-CAPT Sheridon, B5

"Know you enemy and know yourself and you will be victorious."

-CMDR Riker quoting The Art of War

[Antonio Cabañas]

As I see the issue, there is TWO variants of the Ambassador class. The first variant is the original, comissioned at early 24th Century, and other variant (refit?) comissioned around the 2340s.
The first variant is the Enterprise-C as appeared on "Yesterday's Enterprise", while the other is the Ambassador appearing on "Emmissary".
If I remember correctly there was some differences on the main deflector, the end of the saucer, and the shuttlebay. I think that those differences (I'm following Steve Pugh of the Vessels of Starfleet site) represent the 2 different variants. The upgraded variant retain the Explorer designation, whilst those which hasn't been refit has been "downgraded" to heavy cruisers.

[toadkiller]

That I could live with. In fact I've sort of split up the class that way - some of the A's are on par w/ the Galaxy class (or at least close to it) and some are "older" as they haven't been refit (and may or may not be).

Cool -

TK

[JALU3]

Two variants? Where? I don't remember this, can someone send me this site?

[Antonio Cabañas]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JALU3:
Two variants? Where? I don't remember this, can someone send me this site?</font>

http://steve.pugh.net/fleet

but if you want to see a detailed comparison between the two models go to:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...ambassador.htm

[JALU3]

Thnnks for the links. It's to bad that she isn't still in production. Given, that there are better vessels currently in production in the Heavy Cruiser Classification (Random thought, then would the excelsior fall to Crusier classification), but she is a good design, and the new Heavy Cruiser, the Akira, isn't exactly a diplomatic vessel.