Starfleet Academy's graduate output

[Fred]

I was wondering. Does anyone know how big is a graduation class at Starfleet Academy? It seems to me, that just one Academy wouldn't be able to provide enough officers every year to keep the ships' officer-related functions going.
i remeber reading somewhere that there were 22 cadets for every class - I think it wasn't cannon. I find that number unbelievable. Maybe something 2 or three times greater would be more reasonable, say 300.
does anyone has the cold hard facts?

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"As long as you can laugh, you are not
defeated."

–- Jack Vance

[starkllr]

Originally posted by Fred:
I was wondering. Does anyone know how big is a graduation class at Starfleet Academy? It seems to me, that just one Academy wouldn't be able to provide enough officers every year to keep the ships' officer-related functions going.
i remeber reading somewhere that there were 22 cadets for every class - I think it wasn't cannon. I find that number unbelievable. Maybe something 2 or three times greater would be more reasonable, say 300.
does anyone has the cold hard facts?

I looked through the Starfleet Academy set and I didn't find a total number, but it is mentioned that there are several dormitories, housing from 100 up to 600 students. Assuming that there are four classees of students, that blows the 22 cadet theroy out of the water.

For comparison purposes, the first year class at the U.S. Naval Academy this year is 1,224. The graduating class will be somewhat lower, probably 800-900. West Point's numbers are similar (4,000 cadets total, ccording to their website), and I couldn't find a reference for the Air Force Academy, but I'd guess it's similar.

So in the three major U.S. service academies, we've got about 12,000 students, starting with about 3,600 in the first year, and ending up with 2,500-3,000 actually graduating each year.

I'd think that Starfleet Academy, drawing from a population 50 times as big at the U.S., would have to have graduating classes at least as big as the three U.S. academies combined.

[Kirk Johnson-Weider]

I have always been curious (and bewildered) about the Starfleet Academy graduation rates as well.

In my campaign I gave the Academy a 40,000 student enrollment (the same as my alma mater - UF, which helped me visualize it). This would give a graduating class of around 8000.

But looking at the information from Starkllr and some of the estimates on fleet size I have seen would seem to require an even larger Academy. But the series seems to show a smaller and closer knit Academy! Anyone else have any thoughts on this.

[Fred]

Originally posted by starkllr:

I'd think that Starfleet Academy, drawing from a population 50 times as big at the U.S., would have to have graduating classes at least as big as the three U.S. academies combined.

It's not just 50 times bigger. You forgot that there are 150 planets in the UFP. According to that first season TNG episode (where Wesley applies to the Academy) it seems Starfleet allocates places to all the planets in the UFP, maybe based on population size, although you don't have to be a native to compete for its place.

I agree with you, Kirk. They always show the Academy as being this intimate place where everybody knows each other. Kind of difficult if there are 12,000+ people there.

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"As long as you can laugh, you are not
defeated."

–- Jack Vance

[Captain Novaes]

Once I made a VERY modest (some would say pedestrian...!) estimate of 6,000 graduates per year. After all, a loss of 39 people at Wolf 359 seemed significant. Then, I watched BoBW II again, and there's a line in it where Shelby says the fleet will be reassembled in less than a year (personnel included, I think).

By the way, Fred, where in Rio do you play ? I thought I was the only one !

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No matter where you go, there you are.

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by Captain Novaes:
Once I made a VERY modest (some would say pedestrian...!) estimate of 6,000 graduates per year. After all, a loss of 39 people at Wolf 359 seemed significant. Then, I watched BoBW II again, and there's a line in it where Shelby says the fleet will be reassembled in less than a year (personnel included, I think).

By the way, Fred, where in Rio do you play ? I thought I was the only one !

You mean 39 ships of course.

Mind you 39 people could be crippling, it just depends on which 39 people...

I always sort of assumed that in the Vacuum after wolf 359 there was a slight personnel readjustment, to graduate the advanced cadets slightly early (as was seen later with Nog during the Dominion War), and redeploy the personnel and resources for filling these 'gaps' in the fleet...

I used it as a justification for a character leap from ensign to full Lt. in a background I wrote...


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Dan.

"A couple of thoughts froma random mind!"

[Greg Smith]

In 'The Drumhead' Norah Satie states that 11,000 lives were lost at Wolf 359.

That's a lot of people to replace.

But Wolf 359 and THe Dominion War apart, perhaps they don't need a large number of new officers. They may only need to replace those who leave Starfllet. As Starfleet seems to be a longterm career rather than just a few years like modern militaries. In which case a few thousand new officers per year is perhaps sufficient.




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Greg

"Calm may work for Locutus of Borg here, but I'm freaked and intend to stay that way."

[Fred]

Originally posted by Captain Novaes:
Once I made a VERY modest (some would say pedestrian...!) estimate of 6,000 graduates per year. After all, a loss of 39 people at Wolf 359 seemed significant. Then, I watched BoBW II again, and there's a line in it where Shelby says the fleet will be reassembled in less than a year (personnel included, I think).

Perhaps she was referring to the ships instead of the people. Let's not forget that there were civilians and enlisted men included in that figure. Assuming that, let's say, 20% were officers, that would make 2,200 people to replace. A 3,000- or 4,000-class would be able to do it in one year

So, although your estimate of 6,000 seems reasonable, perhaps it's a little less, like Greg said, and in times of need they increase it by using the system described by Dan.

By the way, Fred, where in Rio do you play ? I thought I was the only one !

I don't have a set place. I usually do it at a friend's apartment. What about you?


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"As long as you can laugh, you are not
defeated."

–- Jack Vance

[Eric R.]

The Academy's size would be a reflection of the fleet size at different times in Federation history.

Lets assume a small fleet and first graduating class in 2166 with say a fleet of 6 vessels (gotten from SF: Year One) a class of 22 would not be out of hand.

[spyone]

There are two good ways to work out the size of an Academy graduating class:

1) If you agree that all Starfleet Officers attended the Academy, then the Academy must produce enough graduates to replace the officers lost every year. Take the number of officers in Starfleet, divide by the average length of a career in Starfleet (40 years works), and that gives your minimum graduating class.

2) You could base off population.
Bear in mind here that entering a US Service Academy is not the only way to become an officer in the US military, and in fact most officers did _not_ attend these Academys. Nonetheless, the US supports graduating classes totalling about 9,000 each year, from a population of (crudely) 300,000,000. That's about 0.003% of the population.
If we say that the 150 Federation Member Worlds have an average population of 6,000,000,000, that's 9*10^11 people, which would give you about 27,000,000 Academy graduates each year.

This same method (population) tells one that the Federation can afford a permanant, standing military of about 9,000,000,000 members.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[Mad Cow]

Buddy, I think I'm going to have to stop you there.

Firstly an average of 6 Billion people per member world is WAY to many. From memory I think Earth is quoted as having a population of 10 billion, but it is one of the core worlds. Most member planets would either be evolved colonies or other (logically) less powerful or numerous civilizations.

Secondly a comparison of ship numbers and crew sizes given in the various LUG books leaves a bit of a deficet. Where exactly are the other 8.5 billion Starfleet OFFICERS (not including enlisted personnel) supposed to be stationed? They can't all be marines ... er, RRT's ... er, ground troops.

And what about the ever popular cry "You're the only ship in the quadrant?" Nine billion Starfleet officers looking to make a name to themselves would be falling over each other trying to save the universe. And don't tell me that in the entire other 8,999,999,999 members of Starfleet the isn't someone else at the same level as Picard ans friends.

Academy output is probably quite large (do they have any off world campus'?) but it ain't that big. With a graduating class of 27 million (with three times that number waiting in the wings) they could probably apply for self rule status as an independant country!


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"You couldn't even SPELL Prime Directive!"
"Not true. It's spelt P-H-A-S-E-R."

[Captain Novaes]

Dan Gurden wrote:

"You mean 39 ships of course.

Mind you 39 people could be crippling, it just depends on which 39 people... "

I stand corrected. Duh ! :-)

This reminds me of another question. Just how big is Starfleet ? 39 ships should be a hefty loss indeed, though Shelby did state that the fleet could be rebuilt in less than a year. To replace the 11,000 odd casualties would be another matter entirely, of course.

Then comes the Dominion War, where every other episode we hear that the Xth fleet is in a state of disarray oe severely crippled. It's difficult to make an educated guess, but it would imply that both the Academy's and Shipyard's output are quite large.

I use to play in Jacarepaguá, Fred; I'm the narrator for our happy crew. Maybe we could swap stories and adventure suggestions someday !



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No matter where you go, there you are.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Captain Novaes:

This reminds me of another question. Just how big is Starfleet ? 39 ships should be a hefty loss indeed, though Shelby did state that the fleet could be rebuilt in less than a year. To replace the 11,000 odd casualties would be another matter entirely, of course.

[/b]

I asked this very question over at the spacedock forum. The conclusion was that starfleet must have around 3,000 ships during the Dominion War.

I use to play in Jacarepaguá, Fred; I'm the narrator for our happy crew. Maybe we could swap stories and adventure suggestions someday !

I'm also the narrator. And yes, that would be great. E-mail me.

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"As long as you can laugh, you are not
defeated."

–- Jack Vance

[spyone]

Originally posted by Mad Cow:
Buddy, I think I'm going to have to stop you there.

Firstly an average of 6 Billion people per member world is WAY to many. From memory I think Earth is quoted as having a population of 10 billion, but it is one of the core worlds. Most member planets would either be evolved colonies or other (logically) less powerful or numerous civilizations.

Well, I suspect that the 'less numerous' nature of other races would be reflected in their having fewer colonies more than in their having a less populous home world. And I agree that meany Members are former Colonies, which is why I picked an average of 6 billion. After all, an Earth of 10 billion and a single colony of 2 billion will average to 6 billion.

But, if you don't like those population figures, change them. The economy can support a military of 1% the population.

Secondly a comparison of ship numbers and crew sizes given in the various LUG books leaves a bit of a deficet.

Not everyone believes Starfleet is as big as it can be.

Where exactly are the other 8.5 billion Starfleet OFFICERS (not including enlisted personnel) supposed to be stationed? They can't all be marines ... er, RRT's ... er, ground troops.

And what about the ever popular cry "You're the only ship in the quadrant?" Nine billion Starfleet officers looking to make a name to themselves would be falling over each other trying to save the universe. And don't tell me that in the entire other 8,999,999,999 members of Starfleet the isn't someone else at the same level as Picard ans friends.

Firsly, the 6billion figure includes enlisted personnel. However, it is just for a military; Starfleet's exploration budget may allow them to get even bigger if you'd like.
Okay, let's assume that half of all Starfleet personnel are assigned to starbases or other support roles (like supply ships). That leaves us 4.5 billion to account for.
If an average ship has a crew of 750 (a little high), this gives 6 million ships.
How can the heroes be "the only ship" able to respond to an emergengy? That depends on how thin those ships get spread.
The size of the Federation is a subject for great debate, but let's arbitrarily say it is 1000ly thick and 4000ly on a side, rectangular.
Each ship is assigned to a patrol area. If that area is designed so a ship can reach any point in that area at Warp 9.2 in 20 days, that gives a cube 104ly on a side. Round that off to 100ly. This means the Federation is an area of 10 patrol zones by 40 by 40, or 16,000 ships just to patrol that area. This does ignore the fact that lots of ships will be bunched up in high-threat areas, like along the Romulan Neutral Zone.
Admittedly, this is not nearly 6 million. So, if we have to accept that either Starfleet is not as large as it _could_ be, or it is not spread as thin as it seems, or the Federation is far larger than we thought. I go for option one.

Academy output is probably quite large (do they have any off world campus'?) but it ain't that big. With a graduating class of 27 million (with three times that number waiting in the wings) they could probably apply for self rule status as an independant country!

I agree. Either the Academy needs to be unrealisticly large or the Federation needs to be unrealisticly small or there must be many Academy campuses on many worlds.

I was just providing some real-world based data, so that people who are changing reality at least know what they are changing it from.


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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[This message has been edited by spyone (edited 12-11-2000).]

[calguard66]

Originally posted by Captain Novaes:
Once I made a VERY modest (some would say pedestrian...!) estimate of 6,000 graduates per year. After all, a loss of 39 people at Wolf 359 seemed significant. Then, I watched BoBW II again, and there's a line in it where Shelby says the fleet will be reassembled in less than a year (personnel included, I think).

The Federation lost 39 SHIPS at Wolf 359... and over 10,000 lives. They give the numbers in an episode, but can't recall which one.

At the time this was seen as an imense blow to Starfleet, causing it's forces to be spread much more thinly (remember the problems they had scraping up enough ships for the blocade against the Romulans less than a year later? Wolf 359 was given as a reason), and giving the impressing that Starfleet might only have a few hundred ships total. The Dominion War changed that a lot... Starfleet must have thousands of ships (plus the local planetary SDF's... the Vulcan and Andorian books imply that each has a fairly substantial fleet) or else every ship in Starfleet was involved in Operation Return, with nobody guarding the back door.


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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain