Starfleet Marines: Fact or Fiction?

[Fred]

Outside non-canon material, I have never seen, or even heard a mention of the Marines in Starfleet. It seems Rene Auberjonois' character in Star Trek VI, Col. West (the officer who presents the extraction plan for Kirk and McCoy to the UFP President) was supposed to be a marine. However, in TNG, we hear nothing about them.

The last two seasons of DS9, which woould have been the perfect time to introduce them, make no mention of them. The episode "The Siege of AR-558" shows Starfleet officers -- regular ones like starship crew -- battling the Jem'Hadar, not combat-oriented operatives.

This leads me to conclude that Starfleet does not maintain a marine contigent, counting on cross-training to provide its officers with batle skills.

What everybody else think?


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"As long as you can laugh, you are not
defeated."

–- Jack Vance

[Owen E Oulton]

Starfleet does, indeed, have dedicated ground forces. They were seen in Nor The Battle To The Strong... and The Seige Of AR-558. They wear black uniforms with a coloured stripe across the crest and shoulders. They use standard naval-style Starfleet ranks. In DS9, they were simply referred to as "Ground Forces" (What You Leave Behind), and are represented in ICONTrek as the Rapid Reaction Teams. They are not Marines, just as the rest of Starfleet ins't the Navy - Paramount said so...

If, on the other tentacle, you want to call 'em Marines in your game, fill yer boots, b'y.

[AslanC]

In my game I am taking the Starfleet Marine attitude and making it a "Peackeeper Force" so the RRT find themselves working alongside the Navy guys. But I think they will have Army ranking and not Naval.

Oh by the by Owen, it may say Ottawa on your thingy, but after the fill yer boots line, are you from the Martimes my son?

: )

[USS Intrepid]

Actually it's very much open to interpretation.

The black uniforms with couloured stripes were actually heavily padded (possibly some kind of armour) black jackets worn over a standard uniform. Go back and watch Nor the battle and Siege, and you'll see normal uniforms worn under them.

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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-73602, U.S.S. Intrepid
http://www.ussintrepid.org.uk

[Owen E Oulton]

Well, in the series, they definitely used naval style ranks. Ast I said, though, your game, do what you like. Every game is effectively a parallel universe, as I see it...

PS:
Dad's from Moncton NB, Mom's from Kentville NS. I lived in Nova Scotia from 1972-1985.

[Sjohn]

I thought I was back in St. John's there for a minute

[Fred]

Originally posted by USS Intrepid:
Actually it's very much open to interpretation.

The black uniforms with couloured stripes were actually heavily padded (possibly some kind of armour) black jackets worn over a standard uniform. Go back and watch Nor the battle and Siege, and you'll see normal uniforms worn under them.

Yeah, I distinctly remember regular Starfleet uniforms. That's one of the basis of my hypothesis. I guess I'll have to watch them again. However, since syndication is showing DS9's first season, that might take a while.




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"As long as you can laugh, you are not
defeated."

–- Jack Vance

[USS Intrepid]

I have both those on video. They're released fairly quickly in the UK.

I went back and checked, they definately waer standard uniforms under the 'flak jackets'.

But as already mentioned, whatever you use in your game

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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-73602, U.S.S. Intrepid
http://www.ussintrepid.org.uk

[spyone]

DS9 also featured numerous dialogue references to "troops", though what exactly that meant is open to debate.

It seems that Starfleet does have SOME people who specialize in ground combat, but who they work for and what they're called is unspecified.

(_I_ call them Marines, because that word traditionally applies to that role. Many others abjure the word 'marine' for them, because for them it evokes images of mindless violence and brutal behavior they cannot reconcile with Starfleet.)

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[flip]

NO matter how many times this questions comes up it boils down to three points.

1. Except in times of war, the concept of marines is counter to the ideals of Trek. In war or tense areas of space, Starfleet does have dedicated ground troops. Canon examples are ST6, and the Dominion war. They are referred to as ground troops not marines.

2. LUG has the ground troops referred as Rapid Response using elements of Marines, Special Forces and SWAT Teams. Any mention of Marines was corrected in errata material as referring to RRT. FASA Trek was a more military oriented game, so it had Battleships, marines etc.

3. Your the Narrator. You are the Boss, Commander in Chief, Producer/ Writer/ Director, and Q. If ya want to have the RRT's called Marines. go ahead. Its your game. I like the earlier comment about each game being a parallel universe. It seems perfectly Trek to have and infinite number of versions of and infinite flexible universe.

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"Mission? what mission?"
"Save the galaxy."
"AGAIN?!?!?!?!"

[Legate Legion]

Originally posted by spyone:
(_I_ call them Marines, because that word traditionally applies to that role. Many others abjure the word 'marine' for them, because for them it evokes images of mindless violence and brutal behavior they cannot reconcile with Starfleet.)

As a Marine, I would like to point out that most of the mindless violence & brutal behavior in the past has been done by either the US Army, the US Air Farce...er...Force, & the US Taxi Service...er...Navy. To be honest with you, a Marine is an Honorable Warrior, we do not go into villages & wipe them out, like the US Army, we do not bomb civilian convoys like the US Air Force, & we do not shell innocents like the US Navy.

Yes, against an enemy soldier we are quite brutal & unforgiving, at least until he surrenders, then we would give our lives for him, as we would for any other non-combatant out there.

Though, the same people who call us brutal & ruthless killers are also the first ones to send us in, so we cannot be all bad, can we?

Now, in the context of Starfleet & Star Trek, I see Security operating as MPs/SPs, not PBIs, though they could do the Job, they are not equipt for it. I see the RRTs as ST analogs to Naval SEALs. But, I can see a massive need for Ground Forces. Call them the Marines, the Army, whatever, but never forget one thing, you can bomb a hill until it is flat, but you will never control the ground until a scared 19 year old boy with a rifle is standing there.

~LL

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"Resistance is futile...say baby that is a nice tight skirt you have on." --President Clinton of Borg.

[Dan Stack]

[Moderator Hat On]
Talks about marines on these boards tend to gravitate to "Marines are good/evil" and/or "Marines do/don't exist in Star Trek, you moron!".

My stance as moderator is this. If people wish to debate the ethics of marines, what ground forces are called in Star Trek, do ground forces exist in the Federation, etc, then it should be taken to the Star Trek chat area. I will gladly move this thread there if so desired. As long as this thread is in the Narrator's Ready Room, it should be focused on game-related issues. This includes what sort of adventures are possible for "ground forces", integrating such characters with a regular Starfleet game, etc. (I am ok with the original question asked -- after all, it is useful for a Narrator to know if a certain type of character is valid in a setting).

[Moderator hat half-off]
The fact of the matter is Paramount feels very strongly about the use of the term "marine". Why I do not know nor would I care to see debated on this board. As Owen indicated, there are ground forces of some sort in Starfleet. LUG chose to call them Rapid Response Teams. Call them what you will in your game, LUG isn't going to be putting out any more releases and it'll be a while until Decipher releases anything.

[Don Mappin]

The RRTs in "Price of Freedom" were referred to as "marines" -- until Paramount saw that and had all references to "marines" removed. (And one or two little references accidently were left in.)

So, in the strictest sense of the word, "marines" most definately do not exist in Star Trek.

...but something does.

Don

[spyone]

Originally posted by Legate Legion:
As a Marine, (snip) a Marine is an Honorable Warrior, we do not go into villages & wipe them out, ...

Well, I was trying to distance myself from such opinions.
By and large, the people I find who hate the word "marine" are not US citizens. They equate "marine" with the US Marines, and they equate the US Marines with Special Forces, and they equate Special Forces with the equivelent force of their own military; a force that often has a legacy of brutal rapes while off-duty and other cruel brutality towards the civilian populace. Their hatred of "Marines" has exceeded their ability for rational thought, IMO, and arguing with them is pointless.

(Which just might explain Paramount's attitude: if a large segment of the international audience hates the word "marine", perhaps it is best (for business) to avoid it.)
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[This message has been edited by spyone (edited 12-11-2000).]

[Brad]

I wonder if a lot of people on this board equates to serving in your nation's armed forces with that of dishonourable behaviour and brutal violence. I think it sad a lot of people lump us in the same category as those miscreants who tarnish the uniform and their own and country's honour.
I feel that despite the non canon use of marines in some games, one can play a marine character as honourable as a doctor or a science officer, not every situation calls for marines to go in phasers blazing. I just finished a lengthy campaign where marines where used in a disaster relief mission. Playing a marine character may not follow Roddenberry's wishes to the letter, but through creative narrating and mature roleplaying, marines can add a whole new dimension to the LUG universe.