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Thread: Starfleet Marines: Fact or Fiction?

  1. #16
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    Originally posted by Brad:
    Playing a marine character may not follow Roddenberry's wishes to the letter, but through creative narrating and mature roleplaying, marines can add a whole new dimension to the LUG universe.
    I have to say that, as great as GR's vision was... he didn't get everything right. Remember what was happening in the US at the time, and you may see why the "non-military" emphasis of Trek is so strong.

    It's almost as if Starfleet is trying to deny it's nature... we wear uniforms, have a rank structure and chain of command, use deadly force in defense of our nation and it's interests and are the primary organization tasked with that defense. But we're not military.

    Even VULCAN has a military fleet arm, and a small ground army... then there are the Andorians.

    Remember that throughout human history military men have been the primary explorers... the military provides a baseline of training and discipline, and exploration operations use many of the same logistical skills that the military is familiar with... as do disaster relief, peacekeeping and law and order operations.

    Starfleet is a military organization... or at least a paramilitary one. It's ideology doesn't even prevent that... the US military's primary mission is deterrance. By docterine, if the US military has to fight it has failed it's primary mission. How is that different from Starfleet?


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  2. #17
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    Its pretty safe to say that any armed force has a specialised unit(s) that equate well with the name marines/special ops/crack unit etc.
    So SF's RRT are exactly that, call them what you will but they are a specialised force (in this case security or such with advanced training) that is used in a similar manner to all the comparisons of Earth armed forces specialised units.
    Did that make sense? 'cause i'm starting to wonder

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  3. #18
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    Since it seems somethings never die here is the last time we did this enjoy
    http://www.trekrpg.net/Board/ubb/For...ML/000198.html

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    [This message has been edited by Kevin (edited 12-13-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Kevin (edited 12-13-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Kevin (edited 12-13-2000).]

  4. #19
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    Originally posted by calguard66:
    Starfleet is a military organization... or at least a paramilitary one. It's ideology doesn't even prevent that...
    Actually it has been stated in the movies (STVI) and various episodes of all four Star Trek shows that Starfleet's primary mission is exploratory.

    Military is defined as 1) having to do with soldiers or the armed forces; 2) pertaining to war.

    Starfleet therefore is not military.

    Starfleet may have ranks and uniforms but so do the Boy Scouts. It may use weapons and train officers in tactics but so does your friendly neighborhood police force.

    Too many people look to our modern navy and model Starfleet and its officers after it. I think a much better suited model would the English, French Portuguese and Spanish fleets of the 15th-18th centuries. Yes they engaged in war (particularly with each other) but their first goal was explore and expand the boundaries not only of their homeland but also of science and religion.

    In particular the Royal Navy (STGenerations anyone?) at the peak of England's colonial period produced officers who were among the world's top astronomers, botanists, scientists and philosophers.

    So in short look beyond the military template of Starfleet. In my campaign Starfleet is just as much a diplomatic and scientific service as it is a defensive one.

  5. #20
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    Cool

    I tend to look at Starfleet as being an equivelant to the modern-day US Coast Guard - a quasi-military force, with a psuedo-military command structure, which exists primarily as a rescue/research/exploration/security organisation, but which, in times of war, takes on a far "harder" stance as a semi-independent wing of the navy (though in Starfleet's case, it is the navy, as well - figure that out! )

    To keep this on the board topic - I'd suggest reading a novel called "Hammerheads", by Dale Brown; it deals with a fictional combined Coast Guard/Customs organisation, and would make terrific reference material/inspirational material for a slightly grittier (probably DS9ish) campaign. It could involve RRTs/Marines/Ground Troops/Cossacks/Whatever working in small groups, in cooperation with Starfleet ships, to intercept smugglers, pirates, etc, who are well-armed and well-equipped (can anyone say "Orion Syndicate"?).

    I doubt there is a real drug problem in the Federation, since it's such a Utopian nation-state (hey, there's little to want to "escape" from - reality's pretty good! ), but there could be a real, growing problem out on the "frontier" - along the old Cardassian DMZ, Bajor, former Maquis ships - perhaps even the old Cardie territory itself, and with the Orion Syndicate, Ferengi and whoever else smuggling (insert drug-name of choice here) into these areas, Starfleet could have its hands full.

    Hmmm...just some random thoughts, but it's given me a few ideas!



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  6. #21
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    In my campaign, Starfleet Marines are a RESERVE branch. Starfleet Officers and enlisted personell from all branches with extra training in Marine Tactics and other skills depending on the need. Most reserve marines never have had to to active duty, but when there is a need for a dedicated ground troop unit, Marines are brought to Active Duty and sent to where they need to go.

    That is my answer to things. My SFMC works as an intergral part of the whole of Starfleet. If my people don't want to be Marines, I don't force them. And I think that just about solved the problem.

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  7. #22
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    Toadkill...
    My apologies - I wasn't intending to disparage the Coast Guard in any way, I was just drawing a distinction between the Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines and the Coast Guard. The CG's primary role (AFAIK) is rescue, anti-smuggling, coastal patrol & defence, research (as in mapping, etc). The CG's role is not to go out an win a war (which is the role of the other four branches) - my understanding is that most of the USA's patrol boats were CG, not Navy. Down here (Australia), our patrol boats (all 15 of them! ) are all naval vessels, crewed by RAN personnel. I guess that's why I'm distinguishing between the USCG and the USN as having different roles.

    Again - no offence intended re: the "quasi" comment; I'm a big advocate of Australia developing its own Coast Guard - considering we have 10 times more coastline per head of population than any other country in the world (unless you count Antarctica as a country! ), I think we need it!!

    MadMark...
    Excellent idea, having the SFMC as a reserve force. Perhaps ex-SF security and RRT personnel, or civilian volunteers who want a "little adventure among the stars" once or twice a year?



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  8. #23
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    Yeh i'm all for a bigger Aussie navy too
    From what I'd heard SF was loosely based of CG.
    Mind you dont the CG come under Navy control during war?

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  9. #24
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    Originally posted by CaptainGonzalez:
    Actually it has been stated in the movies (STVI) and various episodes of all four Star Trek shows that Starfleet's primary mission is exploratory.

    Military is defined as 1) having to do with soldiers or the armed forces; 2) pertaining to war.

    Starfleet therefore is not military.

    So in short look beyond the military template of Starfleet. In my campaign Starfleet is just as much a diplomatic and scientific service as it is a defensive one.
    1. Boy Scouts don't fight wars (at least, not anymore... look up the history of the founding of the Boy Scouts some time)... therefore not related to war, therefore not military.

    2. Police officers (in the US) don't fight in war, therefore not related to war, therefore not military.

    3. Starfleet DOES wage war, therefore related to war, therefore military (by your own definition). In the Federation, Starfleet is the PRIMARY warfighting force... the fact that they hope they are doing other things most of the time doesn't change that. Again, the US Coast Guard is primarily a law enforcement and regulatory agency... but they're still military.

    Nobody is saying that Starfleet is only, or even primarily, a warfighting force... but that is a huge part of their mission (especially if you go by what we see on the screen).

    Rodenbery created Starfleet in an era when "military" and "homocidal pedophile" were virtually synonymous to a large segment of the population... the pot smoking, free-loving, responsibility shirking, flag burning, soldier spitting, Jane Fonda supporting segment.

    To re-phrase your last paragraph:

    So in short look beyond the exploratory template of Starfleet. In my campaign Starfleet is just as much a military and intelligence service as it is a diplomatic and exploritory one.

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  10. #25
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    Aldaron

    The US Coast Guard is a military organization - not "quasi" at least I wouldn't advise going into a Coastie bar and saying that.

    They all have to be at least 6 feet tall too - so if the boat sinks they can walk to shore.

    TK - US Navy

  11. #26
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    Originally posted by CaptainGonzalez:
    Actually it has been stated in the movies (STVI) and various episodes of all four Star Trek shows that Starfleet's primary mission is exploratory.

    Military is defined as 1) having to do with soldiers or the armed forces; 2) pertaining to war.

    Starfleet therefore is not military.
    Um.
    I'm trying NOT to get sucked into another go-round of this argument, but those two things are not mutually exclusive.
    The United States Coast Guard is part of the United States Military, despite a primary mission that does not involve combat.

    Simply put, the military is those forces that are/will be/can be used in defense of a nation. If Starfleet isn't the military, who is?
    Starfleet may not be primarily the military, but it is the only military the United Federation of Planets has.
    Starfleet may have ranks and uniforms but so do the Boy Scouts. It may use weapons and train officers in tactics but so does your friendly neighborhood police force.
    If either of these groups took up arms against an invader, or was expected to do so as part of its mission, it would be part of the military.
    Too many people look to our modern navy and model Starfleet and its officers after it. I think a much better suited model would the English, French Portuguese and Spanish fleets of the 15th-18th centuries. Yes they engaged in war (particularly with each other) but their first goal was explore and expand the boundaries not only of their homeland but also of science and religion.
    They were also, clearly, part of their nations' military.
    So in short look beyond the military template of Starfleet. In my campaign Starfleet is just as much a diplomatic and scientific service as it is a defensive one.
    Which does not, in any way, prevent it from being a military. Just a warmer, friendlier miltary than any we might know today.


  12. #27
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    Sorry, guys, but while this is all very interesting, I'd like to make two points:

    A) Nobody here is going to change anyone's mind. Anyone who has an opinion on the matter has already quite firmly made up their minds. It's all over but the necrohippoflagellation. In fact, that's been done too.

    B) There are no Marines in Paramount's official version of Trek. There are no Marines in LUG's ICONTrek. If you want Marines in your own game, fine! It's your game. But everyone, please stop arguing that there MUST be Marines in anyone else's game, however logical you may think their existence is. Just live with it! The fact that I, or Joe Blow, or Suzy Q, doesn't have Marines in my/his/her campaign is not a slight against you, the USMC, or Chesty Puller. It's simply a choice.

    Frankly, I don't see where there's anything further to be said on this topic, and I'm under no illusion that there's a snowball's chance on Vulcan that it is ever going to be a gaming conversation, and this is a gaming forum, after all. If anyone wishes to continue the argument, on either side of the issue, please take it to the Star Trek Chat or General Chat forums.

    Owen E Oulton, CoModerator

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