Ent. Episode 6 "The Andorian Incident"

[Salinger]

Originally posted by Phantom
Ok, don't know about FASA Andorians, but LUG stated that the Andorians colonized only 8 systems, one of which they abandoned because of the disappearance of the original colony. Seven colony systems constitues an Empire? Only seven planets are listed as inhabited. Empire, sorry don't see it.

Something tells me the writers of Enterprise haven't been referring to the Last Unicorn Games' Star Trek core rulebooks. Maybe I'm just crazy.

And, to use Japan as it's been tossed around frequently on this discussion: they not only were limited to a single planet, but they didn't even control the entire planet. I don't believe that an empire is defined as having to comprise X planets.

The scene in "Journey to Babel" where Kirk is attacked...He didn't seem too surprised that he was getting a bit thrashed by the Andorian (and before someone mentions it I know that the Andorian was an Orion, however the characters didn't). I realize this might be an assumption, but it was that scene gave me the interest in the Andorians that I have.

Didn't seem surprised? So, because he didn't seem surprised is evidence that Andorians are great hand-to-hand fighters? I think he was more concerned with not getting his ass kicked (which is probably why he used it as a weapon) that with looking surprised. And, I really don't think he's going to see an Andorian kicking his butt, and think to himself "Oh my...all Andorians must be such great warriors because this one guy is beating the snot out of me."

I think the Andorian combatant showed "a little more skill" then Uhura.

Well, you didn't say that originally. You just listed their presence as an indicator of superior martial prowess.

Chalk it up to "we agree to disagree." I much prefer what was done with the Andorians in DS9 (Avatar), don't agree 100% but the writer who did the Avatar books showed a little more deductive skills and imagination in the development of her Andorian then the writers of Ent showed in last nights ep. Why not go from where she ended...Oh, forgot Para. doesn't consider the novels to be canon, even when a good idea comes and slaps them in the face.

Well, first of all, she ended over two hundred years in the future. And, considering anything canon doesn't really mean anything. How many episodes of Voyager invalidated previous information?

I don't think anything from Avatar was invalidated by the events portrayed in last night's episode. And, I also believe Shar is also an atypical Andorian.A lot can happen in 200 years. I mean, Klingons had lumpy foreheads, then 100 years later they were nice and smooth and Cuban looking, and then in less than 50 years they were lumpy again. Things change.

Quack. Quack!

[Phantom]

A stellar Empire would, I think since there is nothing to use as proof, would be considerably larger (ie many hundreds if not thousands of planets) then a terrestrial Empire. To use the Empire of Japan as an example, true they did not come anywhere near owning the world...But they did control a very large piece of South Pacific and Asian real estate, pretty good for a nation of a few rather small islands.

The one thing you have to remember in this case (if stellar/interstellar Empires existed) is "scale." If one country took over another country (a single country only) would that have been considered an Empire in Earth's history...Barely a page in the history books. If that country took over half the continent it was on would that be considered an Empire. Most assuredly, YES. So is a culture that has colonized a few worlds considered an Empire in Trek (shrugs). It is a matter of perspective I guess, you say "yes". I say no.

[Admiral Wolf]

I liked the episode.

Some of you guys are knit picking this whole Andorian thing to much...

All the early ST "official" stuff I have and have seen plus damn near every RPG to have come out has stated that it was generaly understood that the Andorians had colonized sevral other systems by the time they met Humans...

You don't have to have 500 planets to be an "empire"....if they want to call themselfs an "empire" instead of a "union" or "republic" or what ever...who gives a rat's a$$...it still works canon wise.

Now one thing I thing they need to do is toughen Archer up a bit...let's face it, Kirk would have [by the end of the episode] beat the stuffings out of at least one Andorian

[Azar Kel]

Hmmmm....

I feel compelled to point out that this tendency to cite examples from RPG source material is a bit...well....pointless....um....as is most of our quibbing. Berman is going to do what he wants in order to keep Paramount happy and that is about that....the other option is that we go without Trek on the tube and that isn't a very appealing alternative...

as for my comment on native americans and "human rights"---
I tend to get a tad sarcastic and jaded sometimes but it doesn't come through very well in text...I have no brief for the US government now or then...well not entirely true, I think the Pres is doing an admirable job given current conditions...

thats all for now

[Azar Kel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phantom
[B]A stellar Empire would, I think since there is nothing to use as proof, would be considerably larger (ie many hundreds if not thousands of planets) then a terrestrial Empire.

Just a question but didn't the Klingon Empire call themselves an Empire? I can call myself Kel of the Joppatown Empire and make my roommate Khyron of the Joppa Imperial Guard, doesn't mean that we have an empire they're just words....

[Dan Stack]

Didn't seem surprised? So, because he didn't seem surprised is evidence that Andorians are great hand-to-hand fighters? I think he was more concerned with not getting his ass kicked (which is probably why he used it as a weapon) that with looking surprised.

Oh my... I think Salinger just pulled a Kirk's ass, something I've not seen in a long, long time... Where's Manno?

(Apologies to those who have no idea what I'm talking about, it was a running joke on the original trekrpg mailing list...)

[Salinger]

Ahhhh...I do miss those days back on the Trek mailing list. Those were the days.

Quack!

[Phantom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Azar Kel
[B]

Originally posted by Phantom
A stellar Empire would, I think since there is nothing to use as proof, would be considerably larger (ie many hundreds if not thousands of planets) then a terrestrial Empire.

Just a question but didn't the Klingon Empire call themselves an Empire? I can call myself Kel of the Joppatown Empire and make my roommate Khyron of the Joppa Imperial Guard, doesn't mean that we have an empire they're just words....

I guess it would only matter when the Aztec Empire, British Empire, French Empire or Roman Empire stopped by to stomp on the Empire of Joppatown and show it what true Imperial Power is.

[Diamond]

Well, the Empire of Japan was humbled by the British Empire in the 19th century. That's pretty analagous.

[Azar Kel]

Originally posted by Phantom


I guess it would only matter when the Aztec Empire, British Empire, French Empire or Roman Empire stopped by to stomp on the Empire of Joppatown and show it what true Imperial Power is.

Yah good point, only problem is that all of those Empires are long dead. Some day I too will be no more......heh

[rgilbert]

Overall I liked the episode. But...if Enterprise keeps on the way they are going, the Vulcans are going to look nastier than Romulans/Klingons/Ferengi/Dominion/etc... Did anyone notice if any of the Vulcans actually lied in the episode? Certainly they were deceptive.

In the original series there was a saying that Vulcans never lied. They often used this to their advantage--get Spock to lie to people and they would believe him, but it was understood that Spock was half-human, so he had a loophole. Was the saying just an urban legend, or was it true? If it was true, it seemed to have been violated in this episode.

I thought the characterization of the Andorians was actually one of the things they have done that is most faithful to the original show. We only saw the Andorians in a few episodes ("Journey To Babel," "Whom Gods Destroy" although I don't think that one spoke), but the fact that they were hardly shown, coupled with the Andorian ambassador's one-up on Spock's logic ("Perhaps you should look for motives of passion and profit instead of logic for murder"--paraphrased) has made them one of the most intriguing of the races in ST for me.

One question about their homeworld--it was never mentioned in the original series, so it certainly was not canon, but the FASA game and I believe some of the early ST fiction books referred to their homeworld as Andor. In the LUG game, and here in Enterprise, they refer to it as Andoria. I liked the shorter "Andor" better--I believe it was a stronger name...

Some questions I have about the series--

I had originally heard they would be using lasers (no convenient stun ability, so you have to make harder decisions about shooting someone), but they ended up with phase pistols. Were the weapons used in Captain Pike's time (and on the remote colonies depicted in the "The Man Trap," "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", etc.) phasers or lasers? Certainly no stun capability was ever depicted, although they could have had it, I suppose...

Originally I had heard that the transporter was experimental and would only support one person, making it necessary to use shuttles (again, opening up the possibilities for stories by not having convenient beam-ups). Already they are using the transporter successfully, and in "The Andorian Incident," for multiple people!

Shouldn't the communicators be larger and have exposed circuitry as in Pike's time?

Should the translators work even as well as they do? In Kirk's time a hand-held device was necessary...

Although some updating was necessary to give the show good special effects, it seems like they are not trying hard enough to be faithful to the earlier series. For example, the replicator shown in one episode failed to work, but it didn't look any different from the replicators in Next Gen time. Couldn't they at least have put cover panels on them like they had in Kirk's time? It's possible to make them look futuristic to our time without making them clones of what was shown in Next Gen. I get the feeling the set people just said, "well we already know what it looks like for Next Gen, let's just reuse it..."

I really enjoyed all the phaser beams flying all over the place in the last battle of The Andorian Incident. The beams were bright, thin, and crisp. There was probably more phaser fire in that one scene than in the entire STTNG series...

Long before the Vulcans even admitted there was a transmitter, when the Andorians were beating up Archer, it became clear to me the Andorians probably did have a good case. They're paranoid, but not THAT paranoid. They weren't going to all that trouble for nothing. And the Vulcans weren't acting as indignant as they normally should have, even for monks--"if we wait the Andorians will leave us alone in a few days".

Jeffrey Combs (Weyoun, Brunt, etc. he was in a Voyager episode too) really knows how to deliver a line: "You must enjoy pain" (when Archer kept stalling, causing them to continue to beat him up). He's been sarcastic in almost every role. His characters always seem to take a certain delight in toturing someone...

[The Tatterdemalion King]

"Looks like a duck, walks like a duck,
and quacks like a duck...and tastes like chicken!"

I've always thought anything ruled by an Emperor was an empire...Krotus anyone? Andorian ancestor worship?

BTW, "Andoria" was called "Andor" in In The Pale Moonlight.

[Salinger]

Originally posted by C. Huth
BTW, "Andoria" was called "Andor" in In The Pale Moonlight.

In a later episode (during Season7) it was referred to as Andoria. I don't remember the name of the episode right off the top of my head, but it was the one where Ezri went "home."

Though, you can make a case for it being called both. Earth is sometimes referred to as earth, terra, or sol III. Though, I'm still waiting for it to be called Hume. I mean Vulcans live on Vulcan, Andorians live on Andoria/Andor, Bajorans live on Bajor, and so on. Then again, I could just have just had some bad bread crumbs down at the pond.

Quack!

[Steve Long]

In a later episode (during Season7) it was referred to as Andoria. I don't remember the name of the episode right off the top of my head, but it was the one where Ezri went "home."

"Prodigal Daughter."

The writers definitely can't seem to make up their minds. I think the references are about 65-35 in favor of "Andoria," but that's just a guess.

Personally, I'm much more fond of Andoria, and was glad to see them use it. It just sounds better. Besides, if it were Andor, the people who came from there should be Andorans.

Steve Long

[Salinger]

Originally posted by Steve Long
Personally, I'm much more fond of Andoria, and was glad to see them use it. It just sounds better. Besides, if it were Andor, the people who came from there should be Andorans.

Steve Long

That's very true. Which leads me to believe that if they ever named the third planet of the Sol system after the native sentient species, it wouldn't be Humia.

And, thanks for the title Steve.

Quack!