How canon is canon?

[Phantom]

Originally posted by prophetsteve


TOS Klingons tended to be one-dimensional - John Calicos, however did the best portrayl of Klingons and hinted to some of the elements that TOSMovie and TNG Klingons would show.

As for TOS Romulans. There is nothing I have seen about the TOS Romulans to have me agree with the above statement. While Romulans have gotten more devious in TNG, there hasn't been a huge shift from the TOS days.

I have to disagree with you on this point. Have you read Way of D'era (not canon I realize) most of the honour concepts in that sourcebook sprung directly from Mark Lenards Romulan Commander. How someone can say that the Romulans are with out honour is beyond me. They are wholly dedicated to their government and to each other. Yes they attacked the listening posts along the RNZ, but those too could have been considered a threat from the Romulan point of view. The Romulan Commander left the Enterprise after he disabled it, he could have just as easily destroyed her, but didn't see any reason to kill an honourable enemy who no longer had the abilty to defend itself. A Klingon would have swooped in for the glory of the kill...Glory, Honour does not make.

Most Romulans that have been seen on screen have been portrayed as soldiers doing their duty...The Klingons on the other hand we have seen many more of them following their own crass ideals no matter the effect it has on the Empire or the Federation. Disobeying orders hardly show honour.

To me the Klingons will always be the Trek equivalant of the Mongol Hordes. Where as the Romulans will always be the honoured enemy in the shadows.

[REG]

Loyalty and Patriotism are the traits I associates with the Romulans, but I'm sorry I cannot say Honor.

As for Mark Lenard's Romulan Commander role, he is a rare exception.

BTW, Don, I cannot get enough of Klingons. But I do agree with you, there have been an overuse of this particular species, appearing almost twice as much as Vulcans in all of the series and movies to date.

They should have used Andorians at the start.

[ghosty]

But isn't true honour a rarity among Klingons as well.

These characters, Mark Lennard's Commander and Worf are usually the yardstick against whom you measure the rest of their kind and find the rest of the race wanting.

[C5]

To be really honest, I always found TNG's Klingons' honor a bit like Vulcan's logic... very adaptable to the circumstances and especially to the plot.

[Imagus]

Originally posted by ghosty
But isn't true honour a rarity among Klingons as well.

These characters, Mark Lennard's Commander and Worf are usually the yardstick against whom you measure the rest of their kind and find the rest of the race wanting.

I decided Worf was definitely unusual - a product of an upbringing well separated from Klingon reality. If you think about it, his adoptive parents had little access to real Klingons, and instead encouraged him to read the library records, which probably included huge amounts of inspirational literature. Hence Worf grew up believing all Klingons were like the ideal he believed in. A lot of TNG and DS9 Klingons seemed designed to give him a rude awakening - most Klingons live much more pragmatically...

It's rather like the codes of chivalry and bushido - they were a romantic ideal that some tried to live up to, but many fell short of, mainly due to their own character failings. To read anything about it today, you'd believe all Samurai really would commit suicide if ordered, and all knights really did only fight other equally well-defended foes... the reality was somewhat different.

I definitely got the impression TOS Romulans had a desire to be honorable, but were often forced by circumstances (i.e. relatively primitive ships) to be less so. There was a definite shift in their portrayal with TNG, including a much sneakier and brutal outlook. One of the things I liked about Way of Dera was that it managed to explain their code in a way that fitted both versions.

[ghosty]

My point is that Worf is special and unique which is why he is the moral yardstick against whom you measure the other Klingons. Yes they do give him a rude awakening when they act less than honourably but the thing is Worf does not change because of it. He doesn't loose sight of who he is and that he is Klingon and he lives up to the Klingon Ideal.

Worf is like the ronin characters you see in many Japanese samurai flicks. The ronin is an outcast, but he is usually more noble and more honourable than the "noble" samurai around him.

[AlexR]

Originally posted by ghosty
Personally, I rely on the Chronology for my timeline.

I never really did, fully, because it already had a number of assumptions and conjectures that I disagreed with. More recently, since the last edition of the Chronology, there has been both the addition of many new episodes' events, and episodes have provided info that now establishes events that were previously only conjectural (e.g., the exact dates of Kirk's 5-year mission, and by extension, TMP).

As I said earlier, ENTERPRISE is still way too new for any conclusions to be drawn about how it ties into TOS et al, in fact it may be some weird parallel universe or alternate timeline (I won't put it past B&B) so lets not worry too much about it. For now (as mentioned earlier) I'm relying on TOS, TNG,DS9, parts of VOY and the of course the nine (soon to be 10) motion pictures.

I have been steadily incorporating "Enterprise", myself. To say that "Enterprise" should be ignored is to say that TNG should be ignored, too, for its continuity-botches with TOS. Just using canonical info as the basis, TNG has still done far worse than ENT at keeping up continuity with what's gone before, and there was far less of it at the time. (!)

If and when they really do something big enough to force an "alternate universe" issue to come up, we'll grapple with it at the time. But they haven't gotten anywhere near such a thing, so I just don't see the concern, except for fears of what the producers *might* do. Considering that they've been busily surprising me (in a positive way) so far, I'm okay with rolling with them for the time being.

Best,
Alex

[Don Mappin]

Guess I should have qualified my statement by saying that I approach Romulans by the take found in Way of D’era and Diane Duane’s (?) work. Both not canon I realize, but as Phantom pointed out, the Romulan Commander in “Balance of Terror” (?) demonstrated more honor in one episode than all the Klingon appearances combined.

But, as others have pointed out, perhaps Mark Lenard’s character was an exception and their attitude in the TNG era and onward certainly supports this position.

Be that as it may, I’m still sick of one-dimensional Klingons.

[darkwing duck1]

Don: nice to know that there are other Rihannsu fans here (sometimes they seem to be few and far between )

Duane's books are the PERFECT bridge between the 23rd century and 24th century Romulans. The "old guard" (the "honorable foe") Romulans [Lenard's Commander, Ael, etc] are a dying breed in an Empire being taken over by power hungry opportunists [the "lieutenant Romulan" in TOS, the 24th Century Romulans].

[ghosty]

Well don't feel too left out Duck. I'm a true fan of Duane's work. The Romulan Way was an excellent novel and gave insights into a race which had (until then) featured in two TV epsiodes. Rihanssu rock...

[darkwing duck1]

Have you guys read all the books (My Enemy, My Ally, The Romulan Way, Swordhunt, and Honor Blade)? Then there's book 5, now at the printers...

[ghosty]

Yup but I found the new books are not up to the standard of the original two.