Manpower Breakdown on an Akira

[qerlin]

Originally posted by Lancer
And the numbers of officer+enlisted for Flight Ops don't add up:
52+200 = 172?
Probably something you overlooked to change from your first post of crew numbers.

You mean that's not what it adds up to? Maybe I should post after I've had sleep...

[heikki]

Some real lifee details from http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/...ept-cvn-72.htm


There is two departments dealing with the carriers air wing:

Air Dept. and Aircraft Intermediate Maintenance Department - AIMD

The Air Dept is responsible for fligh deck operations, like refueling and fightercraft movements.

Teh AIMD keeps the planes up and running.

[JALU3]

On Starfleet Carriers, will we begin to adopt the Rainbow system as there currently is on USN Carriers?

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/...s/rainbow.html

Above is a link catagorizing them and their duties.

[JALU3]

I was thinking this:

*Heavy Fighter/Fleet Defender Squadron (SVF (Space Heavier Then Air Fighter)or STFS (Space Tactical Fighter Squadron))
6-9 Banzai Class Fighters

*Attack Fighters/Interceptor Squadron (SVFA (Space Heavier Then Air Fighter/Attacker))
12 Peregrine Class, or
12 Valkyrie Class, or
A mix there of of

*Auxilary Squadron (For support duties (AEW, EW, COD, etc.)
This'll be broken up to several divisions and will be designed depending on needs of the mission. This squadron will be made up of:
Workbees
Talon Class Scouts
Danube/Yellowstone (As seen on VOY) Class Runabouts
-Those drop ship things from the DWS-
Type 13 Shuttles (Seen on ST: Insurrection)

All other craft usually attached to Cruiser, in Carrier Mode will fall under the Auxilary Squadron when an Air Wing is Attached to the vessel.

Ideas? Suggestions?

What I was thinking, have the Talons be modified as to carry powerful EW pods . . . used it my round table game that I use to Narrate, came in very useful while trying to sneak through hostile Cardassian Space. Replace one of the Microtorpedo Launchers to make room.

[Lancer]

While we are talking of carrier ops, how do the air wing people fit into the chain of command?
For example, can someone from the airwing personnel order a member of the carrier crew around, just because he has a higher rank? And if so, under what circumstances would that be the case and when not?

[JALU3]

Technically, if a superior give you and order, you are to follow it as long as it is a lawful order to the best of your ability, regardless. (The excuse that I was only following orders no longer is a valid one, and hasn't been for some time now.)

However, in practice, one doesn't usually order around personnel outside of thier command, or division/section, for that matter. For each one is usually to busy serving within their division/section to be able to orders outside of their division/section. However, if you see someone doing nothing, and they don't have anything tasked to them, if they are qualified, you can ask them to do something, regardless. That is of course if they're on duty.

But in a fire fight, an officer is an officer, get my drift?

[qerlin]

JALU's right on the ordering somebody around outside your department. Officers are pretty territorial; unless it's something important -- battle, a fire, movig the dead hooker into a storage closet down by the matter reclamation system -- they don't usually order another officer's people around. It causes nasty fights in the corridors.

Usually you only get a 'hey you' order from your dept. head, XO, or CO...or whatever flag officer wants to stop you to ask inane questions and give you an 'attaboy'.

As for the rainbow system: I can see them doing some god-awful uniform shift -- yellow jacket for ops, but with the usual black area rainbow coded. (Cause if you can make an enlisted guy look stupid, you do.)

[ghosty]

I think the rainbow system does not have to mean a new uniform. On today's carriers the clour coding works by way of a coloured vest worn over the uniform. So if it is implemented for the Akira-class (and other carrier-cruisers) the flight deck crews would just wear a vest over their standard uniforms. Alternatively they could wear variants of the engineering coveralls in different colours.

One thing though, the rainbow system was invented so that the Air Boss could see where everyone was on the open flight deck from his vantage point high up on the island of a seagoing carrier. Onboard a starship, the flight deck is more confined and with modern technology, the Air Boss can actually "see" everything on the flight deck on the flight deck level so the colour coding to identify personnel may not be required any more. Or the communicators can trasnmit their locations to a board in flight ops where they can be kept tack of on an individual basis.

[ghosty]

Originally posted by JALU3
I was thinking this:

*Heavy Fighter/Fleet Defender Squadron (SVF (Space Heavier Then Air Fighter)or STFS (Space Tactical Fighter Squadron))
6-9 Banzai Class Fighters

What's a Banzai? Personally it sends the wrong message, too many connotations with Kamikaze suicide pilots for my taste.

*Attack Fighters/Interceptor Squadron (SVFA (Space Heavier Then Air Fighter/Attacker))
12 Peregrine Class, or
12 Valkyrie Class, or
A mix there of of

Isn't the Peregine a Courier as opposed to an out and out fighter.

*Auxilary Squadron (For support duties (AEW, EW, COD, etc.)
This'll be broken up to several divisions and will be designed depending on needs of the mission. This squadron will be made up of:
Workbees
Talon Class Scouts
Danube/Yellowstone (As seen on VOY) Class Runabouts
-Those drop ship things from the DWS-
Type 13 Shuttles (Seen on ST: Insurrection)

Workbees would probably be attached to the curiser's normal shuttle complement and I don't understand why there's a need for the Type 13 shuttle. The Talon is a good idea, it has longer legs and better sensors than the Strikefighter. I presume the Runabouts are for long range transport of personnel. The dropships are probably not necessary unless the ship's being used as a troop transport.

All other craft usually attached to Cruiser, in Carrier Mode will fall under the Auxilary Squadron when an Air Wing is Attached to the vessel.

I think the cruiser should retain control of its own shuttlecraft. The shuttles represents the small boats on a seagoing vessel so they should fall under the control of the ship and not the air wing.

What I was thinking, have the Talons be modified as to carry powerful EW pods . . . used it my round table game that I use to Narrate, came in very useful while trying to sneak through hostile Cardassian Space. Replace one of the Microtorpedo Launchers to make room.

Or you could remove some of the photon torpedo tubes from a strikefighter and add additional EW and sensors to build a recon fighter. Personally I'd made the torp tubes on a strikefighter modular so that they can be removed and replaced with weapons/sensors/life support/etc. depending on mission type.

[Cmdr Powers]

Banzai just means "Hurrah!" basically. The fighter JALU is referring to is a fan-created machine that looks pretty cool, but we don't have one on the Vanguard.

The Peregrine name question has been overdone here, but- one more time- Steve Long doesn't use it for the Starfleet Attack Fighter, but it has been referred to as that name when the Maquis were using this machine. The larger courier has another name. If it really bothers anyone, we'll just call it the Starfleet Attack Fighter and have done with it. After all, an F-16 isn't a "Viper", but that's one of the names its pilots use.

The Valkyrie Strikefighter was created for Star Trek: Invasion video game and is based on the Starfleet Scoutship (known in LUGTrek as the Talon class).

The Talon class is one cool ship, and I wish we still had ours (killed when it tried to warp out while being held in two tractor beams).

Bottom line to all this: This is all fan-based speculation. The Akira class has never been shown with fighters buzzing around it and this capability has never been seen in the movies or series. This capability was thought up by the CGI illustrator Alex Jaeger, who thought it would be cool, and promoted by the book "Starship Spotter" (and by us ). So speculate away!

[ghosty]

Originally posted by Cmdr Powers
Banzai just means "Hurrah!" basically. The fighter JALU is referring to is a fan-created machine that looks pretty cool, but we don't have one on the Vanguard.

Sorry Banzai is Japanese for "Ten Thousand Years"
or for a less literal translation "Long Live the Emperor". Its a Japanese battlecry and sadly associated with the Kamikaze pilots who wrecked havoc on the USN from November 1944 to the end of WWII.

[redwood973]

Originally posted by JALU3
On Starfleet Carriers, will we begin to adopt the Rainbow system as there currently is on USN Carriers?

Originally posted by qerlin
As for the rainbow system: I can see them doing some god-awful uniform shift -- yellow jacket for ops, but with the usual black area rainbow coded. (Cause if you can make an enlisted guy look stupid, you do.)

Originally posted by ghosty
I think the rainbow system does not have to mean a new uniform. On today's carriers the clour coding works by way of a coloured vest worn over the uniform. So if it is implemented for the Akira-class (and other carrier-cruisers) the flight deck crews would just wear a vest over their standard uniforms. Alternatively they could wear variants of the engineering coveralls in different colours.

Hum. . .the rainbow system for Starfleet. I would not see much need for it; but then we have yet to see hangar fighter ops in action yet. May be the Akira -class needs something; but not on the rest of the fleet.

I would either use the different colored engineering coveralls if yu are looking for a totaly new look. If you want to stick with the typcial uniform, how about adding a shoulder strap, like from the movies ST:II to ST:VI, to the normal uniform. Each shoulder strap colored coded for each duty. That way you have the standard uniform, but can have the rainbow system as well.

[Cmdr Powers]

Originally posted by ghosty


Sorry Banzai is Japanese for "Ten Thousand Years"
or for a less literal translation "Long Live the Emperor". Its a Japanese battlecry and sadly associated with the Kamikaze pilots who wrecked havoc on the USN from November 1944 to the end of WWII.

It STILL means basically "hurrah!" I'm not referring to the literal meaning. And the Japanese soldiers (and lots of other Japanese folks who are not soldiers) shout "banzai"- its not limited to Divine Wind pilots. Look, lets not go much further with this. Its starting to sound like one of those Confederate Flag debates. I really don't care for the name for a fighter either, it just happens to be what that particular fan used for his creation, and besides, there aren't any 'banzai' fighters on the Vanguard, okay?

[calguard66]

Originally posted by Lancer
While we are talking of carrier ops, how do the air wing people fit into the chain of command?
For example, can someone from the airwing personnel order a member of the carrier crew around, just because he has a higher rank? And if so, under what circumstances would that be the case and when not?

Using the current US system, there are 2 types of military authority.

"Command Authority" results from a particular person being in another's chain of command, or being put in charge by a person with command authority. A squad leader has command authority over his squad. A private has commmand authority over the squad when put in charge by the squad leader... even if the private is the lowest ranking person present. (example: W. Crusher being in charge of that planetary survey team)

"General Military Authority" results from one person being higher ranked than another. This is the auhority used by NCOs to tell soldiers to button pockets, tuck in shirts, break up fights and take charge in emergencies where there is no command authority apparent.

There can be conflicts between the two... as when a Lt. Colonel who is not the squad leader's battalion commander comes along and tells the squad leader to do something. Officially the squad leader should tell the LTC that he has been given orders to do such-and-such, and is the LTC sure he really wants the squad to do something else? If the answer is yes, then the squad leader follows the new orders.

In real life, the squad leader has to weigh the importance of his mission, and his understanding of his commander's intent, before following the new order or telling the LTC to bug off.

He had better have a really good reason for doing so, and the LTC had better have an even better reason for interfering in the chain of command. It's an issue that comes up from time to time, everybody understands, and everybody tries really hard to avoid.

Having said all that, the Air Wing is it's own chain of command just like any other department. Depending on how big it is it may fall under the comand section, be a sub-department under Operations like Security and Engineering, or be half of the ships' crew. The difference between a "flight department" or an "air wing" is that the airwing is a separate tactical and operational entity, and the flight department is not. A ship could, and should, have both. The flight department is for the ship's shuttles and craft... the airwing is for everything not assigned to the ship itself.

It's unlikely that any airwing personnel would be in the chain of command of the ship... the CAG may be the highest ranking officer aboard other than the Captain, but the XO still outranks him.

In the US airwings aren't assigned to a particular ship on a permanent basis... the ship is just the airfield they're flying out of today.

[Cmdr Powers]

All very well put Calguard.

The problem is that the folks who write and edit Star Trek have never understood this or bothered with it.

It is apparent from reading the basic books that the Flight Operations department is responsible for both flying the starship and flying the shuttles. I extend that to include shuttlebay operations and so on. The same problem seems to exist with the concept of the Tactical Officer who also seems to be the Security Officer (at least on the Enterprise...).

With the Akira class, we have opened up a whole new can of worms that points up the problems with the last paragraph. It becomes obvious that a starship carrying a large contingent of small craft has to divide up responsibilities into Aerospace Wing and Flight Operations. Flight Ops covers Helm, Navigation, and ship's small craft such as Workbees and Shuttlepods. Aerospace Wing covers larger shuttlecraft, fighters, scoutships, runabouts, and part of the flight deck operations serving such craft. In the same way, Tactical becomes separate from Security which is in turn separate from Rapid Response Teams.

Now, it is possible that one person might wear two hats. For example: The Chief of Security might also be in command of the RRT's and the Chief of Flight Operations might also be in command of the Aerospace Wing, but I think that person's attention might be a bit too divided. I also think that the Enterprise should have always had a separate Tac Officer and Security Officer (it probably did up to the death of Tasha Yar).

These complications must lead to a new understanding of how manpower is divided up on any Starship. The way this occurs on a modern aircraft carrier is a good example. Does anyone know how the Russian Navy did it on their Moskva and Kiev type ships? Or how the RN does it? (Or for that matter, the Indian Navy, the Spanish Navy, and the French Navy?)