Manpower Breakdown on an Akira

[Cmdr Powers]

The recent publication Starship Spotter (Pocketbooks, $16.00) indicates that the Akira has shuttle launching mechanisms forward and recovery shuttlebays aft. Discussions with author AlexR indicate that the areas are connected so that recovered shuttles/fighters can be brought forward to launch again. The text indicates 40 fighters and quite a few shuttles, which indicates a carrier-like starship whether its called a Heavy Cruiser or not.

Space Dock shows similar capabilities.

Star Trek: The Magazine's article about the Akira indicates the designer (Alex Jaeger) intended it to be used this way.

Star Trek: The Magazine recently had an article about the Starfleet Fighter which indicated it was carried by Akira's.

Has this capability ever been shown on an episode or movie? No. So I guess it isn't really canon...

But that's the way we're using it!

[ghosty]

Originally posted by Robbert Raets
Do you really need so many techs/engineers to maintain the fighters? Wouldn't Starfleet expect their pilots to be able to repair & ship-shape the fighter(s) themselves?

You've gotta be kidding...pilots and RIOs to maintain their own strikefighters. I can see it now...after a long range strike mission where the squadron gets shot up by the enemy the exhausted pilots return to the carrier and have to pull six hours of repair duty to get their fighters ready for the next mission...they'll be falling asleep at the controls and be easy meat for the enemy.

[Cmdr Powers]

You have your off-duty guys do the repair and turn-around work- or at least help. I've seen this for real- where fighter pilots get up early and check with the crew chiefs and find out everything there is to know about their fighter and are willing to help pull avionics and engines. As one guy put it, "there's nothing in the manual that says I can't get my hands dirty." The crew chiefs appreciate it and work extra hard on that guy's plane.

Translate this to Trek and you can have your 1 or 2 techs per fighter and keep everything up with help from off-duty fighterjocks.

[redwood973]

Originally posted by Cmdr Powers
You have your off-duty guys do the repair and turn-around work- or at least help. I've seen this for real- where fighter pilots get up early and check with the crew chiefs and find out everything there is to know about their fighter and are willing to help pull avionics and engines. As one guy put it, "there's nothing in the manual that says I can't get my hands dirty." The crew chiefs appreciate it and work extra hard on that guy's plane.

Very true. . .but also very rare. Don't forget all the time in training to advance skills. And the constant breifing/de-breifings also. Some pilots do get very hands on. . .those are the ones who are a little OCD. I would assume the average pilot would do his advance training, do his breifing/de-breifing stuff, do pre-flight inspections, do the mission, take downtime (may be doing some antics others find odd/unwelcome), and start the process all over again. Some guys might take some of their downtime and get hands on. . .but this would not be the norm.

[qerlin]

Actually, redwood's got a good count for the flight ops personnel; should be about 4-5 NCOs for maintenance. As for two officefrs per shuttle -- doubt that. Pilot & maybe a warrant as gunner -- maybe an R&U officer for two sections, or per flight, max. Shuttle bay ops I always considered more an operations job.

As for Akira being complex, that might be but they've got balls-nasty computers. Figure the average shift is just there to make certain most stuff works right. During combat, they'd scramble all hands, of course.

So working with red's numbers:

Operations: 122 (19 officers, 103 enlisted)
Tactical: 76 (12 officers, 50 enlisted)
Sciences: 50 (30 officers, 20 enlisted)
Engineering: 124 (24 officers, 100 enlisted)
Flight Operations (wing of 48 fighters): 172 (52 officers, 200 enlisted) -- this entails flight crews and dedicated techs.

Our total: 544

[Phantom]

I know this is probably a typo, but what happened to the other 14 members of the Tactical staff.

Coffee break?

[Lancer]

And the numbers of officer+enlisted for Flight Ops don't add up:
52+200 = 172?
Probably something you overlooked to change from your first post of crew numbers.

[Robbert Raets]

Originally posted by redwood973


Very true. . .but also very rare. Don't forget all the time in training to advance skills. And the constant breifing/de-breifings also. Some pilots do get very hands on. . .those are the ones who are a little OCD. I would assume the average pilot would do his advance training, do his breifing/de-breifing stuff, do pre-flight inspections, do the mission, take downtime (may be doing some antics others find odd/unwelcome), and start the process all over again. Some guys might take some of their downtime and get hands on. . .but this would not be the norm.

We are talking about Starfleet, a semi-militairy organisation, whose mottoes include 'self-improvement is its own reward'.

just $0.02

[ghosty]

But you're talking about fighter pilots, their mystqiue and way of life pre-dates Starfleet by some 300 years and believe me, Redwood's right on the money, the training and the deployment and operational tempos do not allow every pilot to get their hands dirty. Some do out of interest but there are other pursuits like science, philosophy and a whole host of other things that can be done on a starship.

Fighter maintenance should be left to the specialists...fighter pilots are specialist pilots they cost too much to train and are too valuable to waste on such mundane activities that any technician can do. Besides, the last thing you want to do is monkey around delicate systems your life depends on without all the necessary training. Check out the fighterpilot template in the DWS and you'll see that they have minimal technical training, probably just enough to jerry-rig repairs to get themselves home then turning over the fighter to the real professionals.

Just face it guys, you can rationalise it all you want, the figures given in ship stats are pretty arbitrary (Steven can you confirm this) so trying to shoehorn all the staff you need into the limited number may prove difficult. My view is that 500 is an estimate, it can vary up or down 20% to 30% depending on the mission profile.

[redwood973]

Originally posted by redwood973
As far as tending our 4 shuttles (on a Miranda -class ship) we have:

• One deck officer (Lieut.)
• Two assistant deck officers (Ens.)
• One bosun (Chief Petty Officer)
• One bosun's yeoman (Petty Officer 3d Class)
• Twelve bosun's mates (PO3)
• Six shuttle crewchiefs (PO3)

This works out to be about 5 crewmen for each shuttle. . .

Just want to point out that this is just our deck division. . .the guys who don't leave the ship on missions. They are onboard solely for the purpose of shuttle care/engineering. This are the guys in charge of the shuttle deck, and those who do the dirty work.

The shuttle pilots are drawn from Operation Division and not an actual part of the Deck Division. I estimate we have five flight teams onboard, one for each shuttle, with one for back-up; and each team is made of two persons.

I assume it would not be too diffrent, but as I said earlier this is a SHUTTLE OPS breakdown; not a FIGHTER OPS one. I would assume for a carrier the flight crews would be under the Deck Divison with their own CO, meaning not under the deck officer.

[calguard66]

Originally posted by Cmdr Powers
Besides, fighter pilots like to hang it out. That is they love to party! Seriously, according to the book Fast Movers, combat pilots would encounter such stress that many of them would deal this by the antics you see in some of the movies like Flight of the Intruder. And this was tolerated by their superiors who had 'been there'.

Now what does this have to do with Trek? These are still figher pilots. The mark of a good fighter pilot is that he/she gets involved in his machine- how it works, who fixes it, etc. I can see Starfleet greatly encouraging its small craft pilots to work on their ships ala Steve above. This would lead to much happier pilots and tech crews and bleed off some of that tension!

Okay, less techies, more tech work for pilots!

I would say that figters probably have commissioned or warrant flight crews, and enlisted plane captains.

Shuttles probably have enlisted pilots (coxwains) and enlisted crew chiefs, called a loadmaster on cargo shuttles.

Runabouts are probably commanded by Lieutenants, with an Ensign as XO (like WWII PT boats), with an enlisted crew chief and crew. Talon class scouts would do the same, but the nature of their missions means there would often be higher ranked officers along, one of whom may be assigned as the mission commander... though the Lieutenant would still command the scout itself.

Ground crews probably are not assigned to any particular craft, but assist crew chiefs and plane captains with maintinance issues they can't handle on their own. This also allows resources to be allocated and prioritized in crisis situations.

Pilots and coxwains probably are directly involved in the maintinance of their craft, but would also have a crew chief or plane captain assigned who was an expert.

BTW: Plane captains are responsible for the maintinance and upkeep of one particular craft, crew chiefs do the same but fly with the craft.

I would give myself at least 50% extra craft crews in peacetime... it wartime they would try for 100%, but would probably never make it.

[calguard66]

Originally posted by Cmdr Powers
You have your off-duty guys do the repair and turn-around work- or at least help. I've seen this for real- where fighter pilots get up early and check with the crew chiefs and find out everything there is to know about their fighter and are willing to help pull avionics and engines. As one guy put it, "there's nothing in the manual that says I can't get my hands dirty." The crew chiefs appreciate it and work extra hard on that guy's plane.

Translate this to Trek and you can have your 1 or 2 techs per fighter and keep everything up with help from off-duty fighterjocks.

That's nice when the pilot can do it and is willing, but the Navy doesn't assume he will.

If he just flew a 12 hour mission, and has to do it again in eight, he isn't going to be pulling plane maintinence.

[Cmdr Powers]

Originally posted by calguard66


BTW: Plane captains are responsible for the maintinance and upkeep of one particular craft, crew chiefs do the same but fly with the craft.

I would give myself at least 50% extra craft crews in peacetime... it wartime they would try for 100%, but would probably never make it.

Good points all, Calguard. Especially the one about Plane Captains. That's the guy who gets his name on the side of the fighter along with the crew!

[JALU3]

This is the breakdown I made for a full air wing (3 squadrons, 36 aircraft):
Full Air Wing Personnel Stats:
· 108 Air Crew Personnel (18 Air Crews per squadron (2 person air crews))
· 54 Maintenance Personnel (18 Personnel per squadron; 6 teams (3 Person Teams) per squadron)
· 28 Flight Control Personnel (3 Control towers (2 persons per control tower), 1 Flight Coordination (1 person); 4 shifts)
· 60 Flight Deck Personnel (5 doors, three persons per door; 4 shifts)
· 13 Administration Personnel (including CAG)
Total: 263 Personnel


Scott I've sent this to you as well

[qerlin]

Originally posted by Phantom
I know this is probably a typo, but what happened to the other 14 members of the Tactical staff.

Coffee break?

Um...they got "hey you'd" by the fight ops guys...sucks to be an enlisted guy.