Conversion from Icon to ?

[silvercloud]

Hi all,

Is there anything out there in any type of format that considers the switch from the Icon system to the D20 system by WOTC?
I am wondering since I was considering if decipher/WOTC are bringing out this new version of the Star Trek game in Another format, they will need to make a conversion option available to switch between old & new system anyway...

Why not include the D20 system as an option to switch to, to make it easier for D&D ppl to switch over.
Also whats the deal anyway with them not putting the game into the D20 format..

D12? why D12? Must be some license related crap.

anyway...pls give me some help on switching to an alternate system if you know it...

[AllenS]

It probably wouldn't be too tough to come up with a D20 conversion system but as much as I like D20, I don't think every game in the world has to be a d20 game. One problem with a d20 game would be that we would lose the character creation system since the d20 license expressely forbids "describing the process of creating a character". This would probably also apply to a conversion system as well (although, as I am not a lawyer, don't take my word for it).

Star Trek is probably one of the few properties that can be successful without a tie-in to D&D, although of course it likely still won't sell as well as a d20-based product might...but it will sell to me and probably a lot of others as well.

Allen

[reimero]

Originally posted by AllenS

Star Trek is probably one of the few properties that can be successful without a tie-in to D&D, although of course it likely still won't sell as well as a d20-based product might...but it will sell to me and probably a lot of others as well.

I beg to differ. There are a lot of people who do not like the d20 system, and for whom not using d20 is a feature rather than a failing.

I'm a firm believer that the system should match the game, not the other way around. Trying to squeeze Trek into d20 format is asking for trouble, IMHO. Sure, it could be done, but there are many other worthwhile systems out there that would be even better suited. The only thing d20 has going for it is lots of marketing dollars.

I should also point out that many game companies are still growing without the d20 system: AEG's L5R and 7th Seas properties are pretty hot right now, GURPS is fairly strong, Kenzer is releasing HackMaster using the original AD&D system, just to name a few.

Frankly, I find the Icon system pretty well ideal for Trek gaming.

[Don Mappin]

Originally posted by reimero


I beg to differ. There are a lot of people who do not like the d20 system, and for whom not using d20 is a feature rather than a failing.

[snip]

I should also point out that many game companies are still growing without the d20 system: AEG's L5R and 7th Seas properties are pretty hot right now, GURPS is fairly strong, Kenzer is releasing HackMaster using the original AD&D system, just to name a few.

Just thought I’d chime in here. You mention a few companies and non-D20 games.

AEG is in the D20 bed more than most companies:
They’re making Series: Archer and the Farscape RPG, both D20 games.
L5R – material retooled and now appears in the new Oriental Adventures (D20) book.
7th Sea – Announced a D20 conversion is coming.

GURPS continues to sell based off of their sourcebooks, not the core system, which isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement. SJG is hoping the new “Powered by GURPS” licensing will resolve this (it won’t), an idea that was sparked by the D20/OGL arrangement. While SJG may not be making D20 games, they’re definitely trying to benefit from the culture that the D20/OGL is responsible for.

As for Kenzer using the AD&D system, Wizards certainly didn’t care much and licensed an outdated system that, beyond nostalgia, not many people play anymore. Everything I’ve read (and I’ll grant you this is far from scientific!) is that HackMaster is a niche’ game in a niche’ market that people are buying as more of a gag than to actually play.

The number of companies that don’t make D20 games, or benefit from the D20/OGL, is small list indeed. Everyone’s jumping on to make D20 products that sell well for the first month of release in order to finance their non-D20 ventures.

Holistic Design is releasing D20 Fading Suns in an effort to attract new gamers to the line and sell their other sourcebooks. This can only be A Good Thing ™.

[Don Mappin]

Saw this on EN World today:

I was contacted by WotC's Public Relations Manager, Don Williams, who wanted some market research statistics. I figured these might be useful and/or interesting to others, so I am posting here what I sent him. Note - I have not counted free products (so any companywith only free stuff so far available is counted as 'no product yet') and I have not counted magazines, counters or other accessories not strictly d20.

d20 Publishers with products for sale: 56
d20 Publishers without products yet: 28
Total number of currently available d20 products: 184
Rate at which I'm contacted by new publishers: 1-2 per week.

I agree with Allen's assessment of the d20 market. (Nice to see you around, Allen!)

[reimero]

In that case, we're all doomed. I can't stand the D20 system.

On the other hand, I'm one of those guys who can calculate THAC0 in his head

[Liquidator Queeg]

If the d20 lines of publishers help them generate some decent sales figures and provide them with more money for their non-d20 lines, like Don said that's great!

I don't see anything wrong with taking advantage of a cash cow. And if there are a few gems among the flood of d20 products out there, that's good for me too since I play D&D.

Fiery Dragon, Atlas Games and Necromancer Games make some of the best third-party D&D modules around -- daresay I, even better than Wizards' modules! And a company like Atlas certainly won't abandon their non-d20 games. In fact, the RUNE RPG (by Robin Laws of LUG, Feng Shui and scads of other games and novels fame), that was just released this summer, rocks on toast! No d20s in that game.

Steve

[reimero]

Everybody makes d20 products for the same reason most of the software written is for Windows: it's what the industry giant has thrown its weight behind, and like in the computer industry, the industry players believe d20 is the key to viability.

I'm not going to argue that the d20 system is becoming a juggernaut. I simply think that in its efforts to become a more universal system, it abandoned a lot of the charm and fine detail other systems offer. You can't put a square peg into a round hole, so WOTC compromised with an octagon, you know?

Seriously, though, I think that in developing a "universal" system, they abandoned certain key aspects of role-playing games. I don't mind learning several different systems. In our group, we use AD&D, 2nd Ed AD&D, Twilight 2k, Cyberpunk, L5R, West End Star Wars, Icon, Bond and Cthulhu systems. No one is expected to know them all, it's up to the DM to explain how to roll what. (My group is just now figuring out how the Icon system works.) What's nice about all those systems is that you really feel like you're playing different games according to different rules. Punk and Cthulhu are dangerous with a high body count, and the system reflects that. D&D has a moderate chance at being killed, and the system is appropriate for that. 7th Sea is geared more toward "heroic" play, so the duels are longer and more entertaining, and much less lethal. As I see Trek, combat is supposed to be swift and (potentially) dangerous because violence is supposed to be a last resort (if you're Federation.) By changing systems, you're also changing the probabilities that things could go right or wrong, and those probabilities are the very core of what makes a game unique.

I guess the point I'm not making very well is that by trying to fit a game like Trek into a "universal" system like the d20 system, you take away from the game's uniqueness and charm. Sure, you can still roll tests, but I really like the varying degrees of difficulty modified by varying degrees of success. My players love it.

As I see it, the system shouldn't define the game. At best, the system should help the Narrator tell the story and the players play out the story as effectively and faithfully as possible.

[Anomaly]

Well said, Reimero.

I see d20 as I see the Empire. And I've got Leia's attitude towards it: The more they tighten their grip, the more systems will slip through their fingers.

I'll never play a d20 product again, but that's my own personal preference and nobody is a better or worse person for playing it. I don't believe that uniformity, conformity and monopoly is better. I'll never purchase a d20 product, because that's how I'll choose to vote against it - with my dollar. I don't care if they write the Ultimate Sourcebook, Ever. I won't add it to my collection of games. d20 Traveller is the first incarnation of Traveller I won't buy (and I'm renown in 3 small countries for being a Traveller Hound).

Personally, I think we need Icon-To-Toon conversion rules!

[silvercloud]

What I would like to know is if I make a conversion to the d20 system, would I be allowed to use it in a limited environment?

I do not wish to publish a book or make money anyway... I just need my players to be able to play this game in the d20 system..

Sorry to all you ppl out there that hate d20, but I just love it for its simplicity.

Help pls oon the first line....

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Anomaly
Well said, Reimero.

I see d20 as I see the Empire. And I've got Leia's attitude towards it: The more they tighten their grip, the more systems will slip through their fingers.

Now that is funny as hell.

I don't dispute your opinion, I happen to think that it is a good system (for D&D and games like it) I don't understand why everyone is jumping on the wagon. One of the things I liked about the gaming world was all the different and imaginative systems that were out there.

When D20 first came I thought the OGL would be a good idea, you a few games with the same system, as long as the players have tried one of the games you could run all without having to teach new rules. I thought that would be handy, but now with everyone in the industry going over to the "dark side" (sort to speak) I think the gaming world is becoming very boring..."We are Wizards your individuality will service us. Prepare to be assimalated!"

The D20 system does have merit, I just don't want use the same engine in all the games I play.

[Anomaly]

Originally posted by silvercloud
What I would like to know is if I make a conversion to the d20 system, would I be allowed to use it in a limited environment?

If it's just your group, you can do pretty much whatever you want. As long as you don't publish it I doubt that anyone will care.

[reimero]

If I understand the licensing correctly, anyone can write an original game for the d20 system. WOTC put it in the public domain. What you may not do without permission is publish an adventure for D&D, Star Wars or any other WOTC property without their express written consent.

Having said that, in this case, I don't see why you couldn't convert it for your own personal use as long as you don't publish the conversion rules. See, WOTC bought out LUG, so they own the rights to all the Icon Trek stuff. Oh well, can't win 'em all...

[Highway Hoss]

Personally, I never bought into d20. I have always been a strong GURPS loyalist. To me GURPS will always be THE universal system, period. I have also taken a liking to Big Eyes, Small Mouth™ anime RPG system. Simple, easy to use and very flexible. I, for one would like to see an Icon to BESM conversion (for a somewhat selfish reason: So I could run a Star Trek/El Hazard adventure).

[reimero]

I've never played GURPS, but I stand by my original opinion: universal systems just aren't as fulfilling as game-specific ones

Having said that, I'm not above borrowing elements from other games that I think handle certain aspects of games slightly better (for instance, I happen to like Dark Conspiracy's automatic-fire rule, in which you roll d6 equal to the number of rounds you fired, with each 6 being scored as a hit. Not to get into a debate about it, but once you factor in recoil and other moving targets, there's a lot of randomness, and more importantly, you get that lovely combination of easy-to-understand rules plus the "is-that-thunder-or-are-you-rolling-damage" effect )

So I'm opinionated