Please comment on the rough positionings of the major powers in the alpha/beta quadrants and distances between borders.
ie: Looking face down on the alpha/beta line (federation perspective, Earth being the very centre of the compass points) with north being toward the galactic core, east anti-spinward, south rimward, and west spinward. ie: Compass Points
a) From this then, the romulans are NE of the federation perhaps their territory going as far as NNE and E
b) Klingons: SE and maybe anywhere from E through to SSW or even SW
c) Cardassions: NE? (NNW?) range: NE-SW?
And of course comment on these points and the layout of any other major or minor power!
I still don't like the idea of saying North/South when you mean Core/Rim. Space has six cardinal directions. North is distinct from Core, and South is distinct from Rim. Anything else can confuse some people.
I think the Romulans extend around coreward a litthe toward spinward, and the Romulan/Klingon border is basically spinward/antispinward.
The Klingons do not extend anywhere near rimward.
The Cardassians fit fully within the coreward/spinward quarter of the map.
The Breen and Ferengi are somewhere between coreward and spinward, likely one three dimensionally north of the other.
The Gorn could be either spinward or antispinward, and the Tholians either coreward or rimward. With these, as well, remember the third dimension.
I think the Sheliak are large enough for placement, and I'm thinking somewhere spinward.
There must be some empty frontiers, such as the Kellinan Reach. The Way of D'Era map showed the Feds extending in the direction between core and spin. I think the Romulans might wrap around Northward or Southward, meaning the third dimension, of course.
I normally like the idea of a large federation so as to avoid having one empire on top of another when looking down from the north. In order to explain the Klingon/Cardassian relations, it would seem necessary for the federation to be very tiny, and the Klingons (and Romulans) quite a bit larger. I don't know anything specific about Klingon/Cardassian shared history, but if they hadn't met until the 24th century, they may have had their first contact from travelling through Fed space.
The six terms usually used in SF for Galactic directions are:
Coreward - toward the Galactic core
Rimward - toward the Galactic rim
Spinward - toward the direction of Galactic spin
Trailing (also known as Anti- or Counter-Spinward) - pretty much self explanatory
Zenith - "up" i.e.: positive on the Z axis
Nadir - "down" i.e.: negaitive on the Z axis
Official Paramount materials are sketchy (purposely), but this is the way they tend to give 'em...
Federation is mostly in the Alpha Quad, with a small portion in the Beta Quad. The Beta Quad is Anti-Spinward of the Alpha Quad and the Gamma Quad is Spinward.
The Klingons are normally shown Rimward of the Federation and mostly Trailing - mostly in the Beta Quad and wrapping around Rimward.
The Cardassians are normally shown Spinward of the Federation.
Bajor is Spinward of the Federation, between the Federation and Cardassians.
Ferenginar is Spinward and Coreward of the Federation.
The Romulans are Trailing and Coreward of the Federation, in the Beta Quadrant.
But this is how I am trying to pull things together. I have the "superpowers" about in the places as in Owens post. Both the Romulans and Klingons are also following the Federation border upwards (zenith). The Cardassians is not directly spinwards, but more to zenith. This make all of them close enough for the traveltimes in DS9. The Federation has been expanding a lot rimward and some downward. But not to much coreward.
This to explain the short time Best of two worlds is taking place in (lots of stardate references in those two episodes). The colony destroyed by the Borg was said to be "One of the farmost colonies". I interpreted this as "One of the farmost coreward colonies".
I also believe that the Federation was quite small during the TOS era. Mostly only what the TNG-era is refering to as the core world. Not until the peace with the Klingons did the rimward expansion take place. This expansion could also have been a lot in other directions as well, as soon as they had moved away a bit from the others. This giving the possibility to a 7000ly Federation.
This put Earth geograficaly more like Washington DC in the States. But still calling those sectors the core worlds, because it is the political center.
The federation I am using is also a big Swiss cheese modell. There is lot of worlds that is PreWarp or haven't achieved membership. As I am concerned, the episode "The outrageos Okona" could have been taking place in the middle of the federation.
The TOS powers as the Gorn and the Tholians is also some of those bubbles (as long the Gorn hasn't joined the Federation after all those years, that is)
To sum my assumption down;
* 3D map
* Swiss chess modell for the federation
* The political core is on the edge of the federation (at least no more that 200-300ly from the coreward border)
* The Superpowers are close to eachother either above or beneath the core systems.
Well. Enough rambling this time...
/Magnus
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"A penny for my thought. A dollar for my silence."
This might sound crazy but oh well, Take the old FASA map turn one counterclockwise (So that the Romulans are now in the new North East Quadrant). Locate Cardassians some place pass Tholians and Gorn in the narrow neck shuffle the worlds around a bit and there you have it!
Main Problem, Romulans are too far away from Earth for the war in the 2150's.
I'd heard of using the terms Zenith and Nadir, and I guess I'd better start using them. Lundgren's point of view is good, and I'm swaying toward that too, wrapping the Lkingons and Romulans to Zenith, and the Federation could extend Nadir of the Cardassians farther to spinward. This could depend on whether Deneb is Zenith or Nadir of zero, I don't have that info handy, does anyone? Similarly, Klingon placement could depend on Rigel. The Borg may have a direct route to the Federation zenith or nadir of the Romulans. 2d maps of trek space probably would be on the galactic plane, Sol is close to it anyway. How close might the Kellinan Reach be to the Rival Powers? As for the size of the Fed, after seeing the Guide to the Galaxy maps, I was thinking the Local Bubble looked like a good border, but I suppose there's nothing there tangible enough to reasonably be used as a border. Now what would the Tholians think of being a bubble surrounded by the Federation? Would their dimension-hopping mean they don't care? They are very territorial. What do people think about Trek references to places such as Acamar? Do you think it's the real Acamar in Eridanus? How about Trek variant spellings, such as Indii and Eridon? I know some of these wouldn't fit. Sounds like we're making progress.
I remember reading somewhere that the Federation haven't explored downwards. Something about a very dead part of the galaxy. They sent a few ships to explore, but none returned. Can't remember if it was in The Star Trek Encyclopedia or in a LUG book. But this would suggest that that the other powers would be above.
If this reference is not something I dreamt up (can't find it right now ). Is it then during the TOS or TNG era? If it is TOS, it could have been resolved until the later series. Or if not, it could be a local problem, that they after some decades of exploring could move around. Making another stayaway bubble.
The dimension hopping by the Tholians could mean there is more than one bubble. Having a few new disputes with them now and then.
When it come to names of system. I haven't put any real thought into that yet. But the player who just become captain of a ship has been studying astronomy on the univerity. So I better look into it. I want things to be at least plausible.
I know I have seen a site where they had been maping a lot of Trek names to real stars (got the URL from an earlier thread on this site). Can see if I can find it tonight or tomorrow, if noone else has posted it by then.
But the way I think works best is to use real names as long as possible. But when something is to contradicting. Then the canon name is just a short for something else, or the name is used on two places. As there is one S:t Petersburg in USA, as there is one in Russia (maybe not a good example, but I think it makes my way to think a little bit clearer ).
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"A penny for my thought. A dollar for my silence."
Could it be that the Fed couldn't go Rimward rather than Nadir? I can think of at least one place that could support this. In the Price of Freedom, in one of the ship templates, I think it says that a ship was lost in the rimward direction.
A while ago, I was looking at the Guide to the Galaxy maps, trying to see if I could assign LUG's Tellar and Andor to real stars. Both are huge giant stars, and we have some indication of direction and distance. Has anyone else tried this? I think it would've made more sense just to use 61 Cygni and Epsilpn Indi, respectively.
Maybe words like Indii and Eridon may be corruptions assigned by breakoffs from humanity (such as Centaurans?) to constellations in their skies. Then again, with so many worlds out there with so many languages, you're bound to see some accidental similarities.
I finaly found the reference to the mysterious border of the federation. It is in LUGs DS9 Core book. They state that Deep Space 4 is in Nadir, and is built to examine the Lidara Sector. The sector only contains evidence of former civilations, but none current. The DS4 would be built in 2352.
The Star Trek Encyclopedia says "Deep Space 4. Federation space station. Archeologist Richard Galen hoped to gain passage at Deep Space 4 on an Al-Leyan transport to Carere as part of his quest to learn about the first humanoids to live in our galaxy. ('The Chase' [TNG])." The Al-Leyan note pinpoint this to 2369.
These two references could co-exist (as long noone else has found some other canon information). But assuming a large Federation, it has to be more than just one sector. Or else I pressume it would be just another bubble. Also, if the station was built in -52 then it could be quite far out (not to far thou, because of the thickness/thinness of the disc ).
But I haven't found any other references to anything rimward, except the galactic barrier, then could stop an expansion. And the barrier would be about 25000ly away.
This on the other hand gives another nice dilemma when studying canon. If someone could reach the edge, or the center of the galaxy in the TOS era. Then what is the crew on Voyager Whining about? They would be home in notime.
And this would thing in making a map would lead us to one of the other threads than newer seams to really die. Warp speeds. If Voyager needs 70 years to mage a 70000ly trip (and is almost home after 6 year, despite a lot of sidetraks... ). How could you hold a 8000ly federation together.
Trimming up the warpspeed table would contradict Voyager. Or would it? What assumtions did Janeway put into her estimation?
Here is some suggestions. Mostly Noncanon (or all??? ).
* The ship must hold togheter the whole distance. There will be no spacestations for repair on the way. So no stress on the systems.
* No spacestations on the way also means no antimatter refueling. We will have to collect our own on the way. This, as well as field repairs, will take time and slow us down (both taking place ofscreen).
* The space is unchartered. So we can't take go to close to certain objects. Also if we will use different CHI factors (or whatever) for different places. We can't use a favorable route, becuse we do not have a clue where that route would be.
* We know that The Borg is somewhere around here. So we will need to take some good detours to avoid them
That could mean that during normal operations, with starbases and all, could an Interpried do that distance in 6-10 years.
I know that www.stdimension.com have ploted the way Voyager took. But I don't know how they got it (some of the tech manuals?). This site has also done some work in mapping Star Trek names to real stars.
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"A penny for my thought. A dollar for my silence."
Okay so if you put everyone zenith way then DS9 makes some sence with distances.
Also if the majority of top down maps were of the galactic plane then they two would make a lot more sense.
But how far to zenith? Ds9 to Earth still needs to be around 50-200 ly depending on warp and such.
Voyager could be explained away with 'chi'. Since they're that far out, no one has studied the subspace/chi 'space factor' and as such their 'chi' is 1 or canon warp charts. Where as TOS ala. Trek Maps had 'chi' at around 1292.
So basically at hte galactic plane level maybe the federation is 8000ly long but higher up in the zenith department and perhaps the top of a sphere then everyone could be within a few hundred light years.
I guess we need to stufy some Hipparhcus <sp> data and determine zenith/nadir positionings.
"So basically at hte galactic plane level maybe the federation is 8000ly long but higher up in the zenith department and perhaps the top of a sphere then everyone could be within a few hundred light years."
Huh? I'm not certain what you're saying here... You can't get a sphere of 8000ly hereabouts, since the Galactic disc is only 1000ly thick outside the Core. Further, Earth is 20ly to nadir of the Galactic Ecliptic.
No what I'm saying is that at the galactic plane level or +20ly for Sol sake! That the fed/explored territory could be 8000 ly across.
While way up to zenith the powers sphere of influence could all be within a few hundred light years.
Does that explain it?
Heerz an idea. Some time in the early 24th century, some kind of warp accident caused the galaxy to explode to a much larger size, and maybe alter the speed of light. That's why the Enterprises A and No Bloody A could reach the Core and Rim, respectively, the D spanned thousands of light years, and Voyager is taking its time.
Here's a little research I did. Rigel is 306 light years Nadir, so it could easily be quite distant from Klingon space. Deneb is 52 light years zenith, so maybe Bajor sector is a few hundred light years farther zenith, and likely somewhat less than that trailing Deneb. "The Great Unexplored Mass" or whatever could be everything nadir of Deneb.
my memory was fuzzy in my earlier post where I said Tellar was a "huge" giant. it is actually a IV. Blue and White main sequence stars are much larger than yellow ones, so could we fudge and maybe say Tellar is Sirius? Planets of the Fed says it is "just beyond" Alpha Centauri, so Sirius seems the best option.
Related to an earlier post of mine here are possible (?) assignments of stars. Ba'Ku: Delta Indi. Dytallix: Omicron Ceti. Minos: Mimosa. Risa: Regulus. These ideas also rely on PotF.
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). Is it then during the TOS or TNG era? If it is TOS, it could have been resolved until the later series. Or if not, it could be a local problem, that they after some decades of exploring could move around. Making another stayaway bubble.
