Fan Consensus Map Is Back!

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Cochrane. Do you have the other axis on those systems? If I remember right, most people use to put Deneb so far spinward so it must be beyond Cardassia. But if it is enough rimward, then that problem could be solved. Or it could be an satelit to the Federation.

But another point. Is Deneb a member of the Federation at the point of the Movie "First Contact"? It was a long time since I saw the Farpoint episodes. But if I remeber right, then they offered the station to the Federation as a goodwill. The motivation was to gain membership to the UFP or something. So it is possible that the new station has a designation as a "Deep Space". One of the stations missions is to monitor the politacal changes, until the system is ready for membership (or if we want them as a member, this is allready completed . But giving a lot of adventure spin-offs if playing during the era 64-70).

Have anybody done a crosscheck between Hipparcos and Gliese? Does Hipparcos contains all stars that Gliese have. Or have the Hip. been focused on more distant systems?

/Magnus


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"A penny for my thought. A dollar for my silence."

[Cochrane]

http://www.stellar-database.com/ will help you out quite a bit. It has oodles of data for all the nearest stars, except for some red dwarves, out to 75 light years, as well as such stars as Deneb, Rigel, Betelgeuse, Antares, etc. Some of the data may be wrong, I think some stars have a - in their coordinates where it doesn't belong, or are missing one. It lists Deneb as 150 coreward, 1592 spinward, and 52 zenith.

I don't think Deneb has been mentioned since Farpoint, but I missed a lot of DS9 episodes, and for all I know, they could say Cardassia orbits Deneb. Your ideas about the station sound plausible. There was some discussion on previous FCM threads that the Deneb mentioned in the TOS era could have been Denebola or Deneb Algiedi. Oh, here's a wild one: Could the TOS Rigel be Rijil Kentaurus? I can see it actually making a little sense. Rigel was an early Federation member. Alpha Centauri was one of the original members, yet we haven't heard much of it by that name. Both Rigel and AC are multiples, which could help explain having many native races. There was a Vulcanoid race there. It's a silly idea though, since we wouldn't want the Orions so close, and there's probably canon evidence that it is the real Rigel. The TOS Rigel/ Deneb problem fuels my theory of an expanding galaxy, don't you think?

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Thanks for the link.

The TOS Deneb could very well be some of those places. Sounds just as the way names got shortened. So that explanation works in my book. But Rigil Kentaurus is Alpha Centauris, so that wouldn't go with the plot in "Shore Leave". Think I better use the expanding galaxy theory, and blame all current star catalogs on some timewarp accident.

One question is what distance could be acceptable for Rigel. A lot of stars with only a catalog name. So it wouldn't be to hard to pick a star on a suitable distance, and give it that name. But has this system have to be near Federation space? The Enterprice is travelling a lot outside the Fed.

The difference between TOS and the later series is so large, that it might not be possible to wedge it all in. I am running my campaign in the TNG era, so I am ready to throw out TOS data if it clash to much. But still, it would be fun to have as much as possible in there.

/Magnus

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"A penny for my thought. A dollar for my silence."

[SIR SIG]

I think Rigel is fine where it is. Deneb may well have to become one of the closer 'denebs'.
Although Hipparchos data puts the real Deneb at 3227 (thereabouts) ly, double what Gliese pegged it at.
Also the TOS Maps nav book says deneb has a starbase on it; something I don't think the Bandi's system would have especially if they're 'building' Farpoint for the feds.

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[Cpt. Lundgren]

That makes it easier to state that there is two different Denebs. Also I think that the Hipparcos data is more suitable. Because otherwise it could be inside Cardassia space. And that is something I don't want to explain .

The real Rigel would be below the Klingon empire (assuming the placement discussed erlier in the thread), and is 733ly away from earth. Would anybody object having the Gorns somewhere in that direction? Say that Rigel is not inside the UFP, but a distance from the border at say 200-250ly. Because 20 stardates later do they arive at Cestus III. So if they wasn't heading in that direction from the beginning, it must be quite close.


Two small points on maybe why some stars are so hard to match into a map.

First, during the first seasons of TOS, the writers probably never gave much thought into the distance at all. Pick a place and write the story. At least I have the feeling that The original Enterprise covered a lot more distance, during the same amount of time, as the Enterprise-D (the expanding galaxy theory? ).

Second, there is also a risk that some astronomer named a star after a system in his favorite tv show. So a nonreal star supposed to be at 200ly, suddenly becomes a real star at say for example 4000ly.

Hm, guess I am rambling again
/Magnus

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"A penny for my thought. A dollar for my silence."

[SIR SIG]

Antares, Deneb and Rigel would all be major bubble/spheres of federation influence way out on the edges of what the feds claimed as there exploration zone. Thus the Antares IV shipyards to give a bit of force that far out. Plus they were all big stars ripe for colonization that people could flock to (not hard to miss these stellar giants)

Well maybe the Gorn are out the back of Klingon space either zenith or nadir depending on where Rigel was.

As for a Chi factor in TOS, I'd put it at 12.96 fed av instead of there reported 1296. Thus on average your ship could travel 13 times faster (on average) across fed space.

This would also work for TNG times alowing the E-D to get about easy while the DS9 theatre of war was around the fed core worlds. (From maps i've done with the DS9 maps and things I heard on the shows, I would peg Bajor-Earth at about 190 ly in 2d)

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[Cpt. Lundgren]

I think that Rigel should, by the time of TNG, be within the federation. If I read the possitioning in the database right. Rimward, nadir & antispinward. So there is no major power in the way. Only that we had to be quite close following the Klingon border. But since the peace (however uneasy) that would not be to big of a problem.

I agree on Deneb. That would probably be a Federation bubble out in nowhere. Or maybe just a Federation friendly bubble, wanting membership? I think I will go with that one myself. Giving a few seeds for diplomatic adventures. Or a few more action orientating if the diplomacy fails, and someone has to protect the UFP colonist in the area.

But Antares seems to be coreward and Zenith. I am at work right now. So I can't look up the history of Antares. But if it only mentioned in TOS, it could even have been invaded by the Romulans by now. It is 600ly away from Sol. Thats about how far I would like to stretch the Federation in that direction, even if assuming the big Fed. idea.

How about this? Antares was a bubble. But after some decades of exploration, colonization and diplomacy we have filled the
space in between. Maybe the arm in that direction is first going downwards (nadir) to get beneath the Romulans, and later uppwards to reach Antares. The expansion could very well have been working from both directions at the same time.

That would also give us the coreward end of the Federation. So we would only have to fill about 7000ly in the other direction. If we want Picards statement to be true, that is.

/Magnus

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"A penny for my thought. A dollar for my silence."

[SIR SIG]

Yep, Deneb at 3227 ly as a fed friendly world/bubble way out where the Bandi are seeking an alliance/membership. (Thus Farpoint station to sweeten the deal)
Also would explain why E-D was pretty lonely with little SF support.

Obviously some space has to be filled in by now to alow traffic that far out. But a fast ship and the Chi factor could get youo there in 6-12 months.

Antares? Well I suppose they could be out past romulans but Im not sure the rommies a quite in the way! (All depends if the Rommies have any AQ space which LUG map says yes).
600 ly is plausible for a small/large fed. And indeed the space in between is most likely filled in.
I would think Rigel is behind but below klingon space and fully colonized by now.

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[SIR SIG]

Another question, the federation symbol/sigil with 3 very large/bright stars. Could these be Antares, Deneb, and Rigel?
The seal also show stars around these, perhaps the fed has expanded beyond as well? Or its the TOS position on old inaccurate star distances? eg Deneb being 1500 ly instead of 3227 ly.

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[Cpt. Lundgren]

If we need 6-12 month to reach Deneb, then we would need 12-24 Month to travell 7000ly. That sounds to long to me. Is there a good way to explain a 6 month trip for 7000ly? Assuming it is all within UFP space. It would still give a "far out" feeling to Deneb. But a reasonable time to hold a large Fed. together. A little bit like the 18th century.

When it comes to the UFP symbol. Then I don't think that it is Deneb, if it's only a friendly world. But it could be one of the Denebs that Cochrane suggested. In that perspective, I think it could be plausible.

It could be Earth, Vulcan & Centauri also. But on the other side, then it probably should be 5 stars (Tellar & Andorria as well). How long has that symbol been in use? If we can fix that point in time, then we maybe could determine the 3 most important systems for that period.

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"A penny for my thought. A dollar for my silence."

[Cochrane]

could the Inner Perimeter possibly be the Local Bubble I mentioned? I think the Guide to the Galaxy maps are at STDimension, for people who don't know what I'm talking about.

[KethVetra]

What is the scale on the map found in the TOS rulebook? was it not included on purpose? why include warp times and provide a map without a scale (light years/parsecs)? thanks for any ideas/information.

[SIR SIG]

Originally posted by Cochrane:
could the Inner Perimeter possibly be the Local Bubble I mentioned? I think the Guide to the Galaxy maps are at STDimension, for people who don't know what I'm talking about.

Well if its in the vicinity of 100-150 ly radius from earth then yeah why not!

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[SIR SIG]

Originally posted by KethVetra:
What is the scale on the map found in the TOS rulebook? was it not included on purpose? why include warp times and provide a map without a scale (light years/parsecs)? thanks for any ideas/information.

The LUG maps are delibrately unscaled and out of whack so as not to peg the trek universe since everything is vague. Which quite frankly sucks. Thats why myself and many others are tring to reconcile some firm distance data fro the trek universe.

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[SIR SIG]

Here's one I came up with the other day, tell me what you think!

Cestus 3
Cetus 3
Cetus gamma
Gamma Cetus
Gamma Ceti

Distance from Sol: 82.1 light-years (25.1 parsecs)
Standard error in distance: 2.3324%
Source for distance: Hipparcos
Galactic (X,Y,Z) coordinates in ly: -53.1, 9.87, -61.7

Puts it out cardie way but perhaps a firm position for it!

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator