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Thread: Constitution Class Starship (Original)

  1. #31
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    Never trust those disembodied voices, guys...they make you do strange things...

    What? What?

    My disembodies voices are saying hello...and to feed the cats turkey...

    Hey, wait a minute! Bloody cats.!
    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

  2. #32
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    Thumbs up

    I like it - its about time we finally moved away from trying to integrate the demands of wargaming with role-playing! The idea of ship traits (and are ship reputations going to be used?) is a great one. I can see that idea being picked up on for a variety of genres .

    Here's hoping that the books get out by April, when I'll be in Seattle for a week - it'd save a lot of postage...

    OT, querlin, given all these padding posts, that disembodied voice could be a sign that you've been possessed by Styro
    “Maintain the mystery, and don't try to think unthinkabilities...”
    Iain M Banks, 2003, on the Art of writing good SF.

  3. #33
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    Exclamation

    In best Dr. Evil voice he can manage,

    "Ok people, throw me a bone here."

  4. #34
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    Re: Icon comparisons

    Originally posted by Don Mappin
    The action is fast with no real number-crunching (you will mark off boxes on the starship tactical display) while the number and variety of maneuvers allows the Narrator and crews to control the flow of the battle and make decisions that will directly control the outcome of the battle.
    Don, with "mark of boxes" do refer to the way damage is handled?

    Regardless if that's what you were referring to I would like to ask two questions about damage:

    (1) Is damage applied to individual ship components (weapons, life support, etc.), only to the ship's hull ('Structure') or a combination of both?

    (2) When a ship takes damage does this reduce the it's effectiveness, i.e. does damage translate into negative modifiers for the ship's crew?

  5. #35
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    Originally posted by Cdr Scot II
    Here's hoping that the books get out by April, when I'll be in Seattle for a week - it'd save a lot of postage...
    Out by April! Oh, fingers are crossed in hopes that they'll be available before then.
    CodaTrek
    Visit the CODA TREK Web Site.

  6. #36
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    Arrow Some more answers to your questions

    Keeping the love alive!

    Regarding dimensions, decks, and crew sizes I used a variety of sources to determine my numbers. Somewhere I have an “order of operations” list that shows what sources, in case of a discrepancy, have a greater degree of canon and were used. And no, before you ask, “Starship Spotter” was not on that list. There are also fact-checking people that go over everything as does Paramount/Viacom so 100% accuracy isn’t necessary during the writing process. (Which is good, because no one is perfect, especially me!)

    Lancer:
    Regarding damage, yes, both hull and individual system damage are tracked. (Six key systems to be precise.)

    Yes, as a vessel takes damage system effectiveness is reduced. As the hull takes damage it become more difficult to execute certain maneuvers or specific systems must make reliability tests (real quick roll). As systems take damage directly or through hull damage they can also accumulate penalties. The more reliable a system is the more of a beating it can take before it fails. The reliability of a system is already factored into its cost when constructing a starship.

    Also as shields take damage (by stopping incoming fire) additional effects can result, such as cinematic explosions on the bridge as your character is thrown out of their chair in a shower of sparks!

    Long-winded but I hope it makes sense!
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  7. #37
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    All this sounds really good. Thanks Don for the glimpse.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all."
    -Joan Robinson, economist

  8. #38
    Sounds like a good Roleplay based way of doing it.

    Question though, are you guys going to fix the ludicrously overblown mass figures for TNG era ships?(Other than the GCS, all the ships have a screwed up mass because they simply scaled length linearly rather than using volume as a measure...)

    That and, if it's a single system for all eras, wouldn't later era ships simply be ludicrously more powerful?

  9. #39
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    Cool

    This is just the sort of information I wanted to see. I didn't really like the icon starship system, and spacedock was too complicated for me. I wonder if there will be any ships information in the Player's Guide at all, since the combat system is in the Narrator's Guide. It won't trouble me much since I plan to buy both books, but I just wonder what will be there on day one for eager fans.

    NobAkimoto
    I seriously doubt that James T. Kirk at his most competant could take the original Constitution up against a Nebula or Galaxy helmed by a competant crew and more than squeak by with a victory, and probably not even defeat the Galaxy at all. So I don't see why later ships wouldn't be represented as ridiculously more powerful; they are.

    Lockhart

  10. #40
    I was thinking more along the lines of ridiculously high figures for things.

    Just brings back horrible memories of trillion box SSD's for Borg Cubes in SFB:TNG...shudder.

  11. #41
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    Question

    What about weapon arcs? Okay I know that for phasers, ICON generally assumed phasers had complete coverage - so I don't care that its missing in the description.

    But how about torps. I would be nice to at least have notes where the tubes are located. Or is the assumption again that since torps are guided it doesn't matter where there are fired that they seek their target out? (ala STVI and ST:Generations).


    Other musings:

    - One wonders how they are going to handle weapons issues like torpedo spreads etc.

    - Starting to really get interested in how DecTrek will handled all the starship related Trek-tricks that were done in TNG/DS9/Voyager. I am hoping something pretty thorough like was done in spacedock but anything will be cool.

    - I liked ICON's stats and its nice to see them replicated here. I do agree with the DecTrek boys that power allocation is too wargamy and detracts from the system.

    Final thoughts:

    Overall pretty cool. I am jazzed about DecTrek and this tidbit does nothing but only make me more jazzed. Rockin.
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  12. #42
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    Angry

    Originally posted by prophetsteve


    - I liked ICON's stats and its nice to see them replicated here. I do agree with the DecTrek boys that power allocation is too wargamy and detracts from the system.
    Now wait on the horn here I just want to stand up for my original hobby here a bit, and yes I come from the days when they came in a box with maps and counters and were not simple minded shoot'em ups. The Idea that Power allocation is a Wargame influence is not staing the truth accurately. When I played Panzerblitz or Squad leader I never had to keep track of the fuel gauage in each vehicle and make sure the alternator keep spining to provide me with electrical power to rotate the turret on my old Tiger I's. Nor did I have to keep track of the oil level on the HMS Hood in Bismark.

    The idea of power allocation for Sci-fi games began I believe with Star Fleet Battles, which it is true to state is a naval simulation of Starship combat and not a wargame, a wargrame seeks to make an abstraction of real world concepts (i.e. power is reflected in the hard number of actions a ship can perform in a single turn rather than making the player jugle various systems to get those actions per turn, that is called a simulation as you are seeking to actually simulate the effect of every componet of the ship in combat.) FASA simply copied the concept from ADB in simple form as did LUG later on. All three seemed to be hooked on the baisc concept of the shows where the engineering crew is always seen making more power for the ships defense or stability.

    If you want to simulate that effect then by all means do so, but realise that in actuallity it matters little as all ships would have been built to keep their systems going no matter what, if the lights have to flicker alittle to switch power form life support to Phasers then so be it, the computer will automtically do it. So in a Wargame the only point we would have to be concern with as to power would be

    1.) Power ability in construction making sure the ship has what power it needs when first built thus determining if the lights flicker alittle or go off for a half hour. This was one good point of the FASA construction system in that Power usage was a limiting factor. However once the ship is built there is no point moving chits up and down a power meter to show power allocation.

    2.) determine at what point and where in critical situations that power is disrupted and can not be rerouted to help the crippled system or area. Here you are only forced to determined the effect on combat as repair would be more important in combat than would shifting the little chit around be of any benefit say if the main EPS conduit to the bridge has been destroyed making the bridge unable to command the ship do to lack of power even though it still has plenty of it!

    So please any real wargamer would have dumped Power allocation rules and opted for a critcal hit table instead before the first edition would have been published.
    Last edited by Eric R.; 01-31-2002 at 04:18 PM.

  13. #43
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    Whoa, Eric! I wasn't trying to besmerch wargamers there. Nor was it making any implication about wargames and bookkeeping. Perhaps it would have been better for me to say "power allocation is more paperwork than I want to deal with". There.

    Sigh. Why does every comment I make get taken as a personal attack on someones hobby or interest?
    I love deadlines - I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by
    - The late Douglas Adams

  14. #44
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    Question More answers beamed from me to you

    Okay, next up we have:

    Nob and starship mass:
    I’m afraid I don’t understand the problem. To my knowledge Icon never got into starship mass nor is that relevant—unless you’re ramming starships together, in which case we just use the abstraction of size. (Yes, there are ramming rules.)

    Regarding ‘powerful’ I presuming that you’re talking about capabilities. Yes and no. We really don’t see those kind of differences onscreen, although obviously a Galaxy-class can whoop ass on a Constitution six days to Rigel. Once I throw up a TNG ship you’ll see the differences. Newer vessels have much more reliable systems and utilize space better, their components give you “more bang for the buck” and have greater capabilities. A Romulan Warbird or Defiant aren’t seriously threatened by a 100 year-old starship, and they aren’t in this system either…

    …unless crafty tactics and maneuvers are employed (along with some favorable die rolls). I think an appropriately “epic” crew could make quite a stand in a mothballed Constitution, for example.

    Lockheart and starship info:
    Yes, the Player’s Guide has starship information but to my understanding it’s more along the lines of daily life, descriptions of nifty systems, what you’ll find in sickbay, etc. You’ll want to ask Ross in the Questions & Mechanics forum because I haven’t seen that chapter.

    prophetsteve and weapon arcs:
    You pretty much answered your question on your own. Spreads are represented by purchasing more torpedo launchers, thusly increasing your offensive potential. They’re abstractly represented. Multifire and other offensive tactics are covered under Maneuvers. You execute a maneuver to gain the benefits of said maneuver (and a test is involved).

    There are a shocking number of “Trek-tricks” already modeled in the core system that comes in the Narrator’s Guide and I don’t think you’ll be disappointed. There are also plenty of maneuvers that capture this as well, plus guidelines to make your own. (How about the Prophetsteve Maneuver?)

    Eric R.
    “If you want to simulate that effect then by all means do so, but realise that in actuallity it matters little as all ships would have been built to keep their systems going no matter what, if the lights have to flicker alittle to switch power form life support to Phasers then so be it, the computer will automtically do it.”

    Well said. That’s why we don’t make you track this stuff. Instead you spend your time selecting a maneuver, targeting a vessel with a deadly torpedo spread and then crying out for “Evasive Pattern Delta or we’re all dead!”

    (All eyes turn to the character at the helm station as he makes his maneuver test.)

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  15. #45
    In terms of mass I was referring to usable volume.

    All of the ST referrences I have have a tendency to vastly overrate the size of ships(and hence give them an additionally inflated capability.)

    An example would be the Akira class.

    The ship's large(at least length wise), but only has an internal volume of 1.4million cubic meters.(Whereas TM's peg her at 3.5million metric tons which is obviously too large.)

    I'm just wondering if size considerations are ever placed when defining a ship's capabilities or not.(Sorry, I'm a tad anal about this, so it's not really something most people would consider...)

    Also as for capabilities I was just wondering, since a Connie taking on a Galaxy would be like using a P51 to take down a F-15(Heritage flight, hehe) I'd assume that figures for weapons and shields and such would simply balloon up to ridiculous levels.

    I presume you got around this somehow.

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