"Sleeping Dogs"-SPOILERS

[TomMarg]

If the book for ST: the motion picture, is considered trek canon, the klingons, according to the book had only recently 'obtained' photon torp technology, hence the reason for refitting enterprise.

From what I remember from the book, the refit design was made by starfleet because they the federation feared the K'tinga class klingon cruisers would be more powerful and able to match old constitution's combat capabilities.

The ' birds of prey' term should'nt even have ben used in 'enterprise' at all. As you noted this did'nt come up until trek3.
I recall an interview with the films director, saying when they came up with the idea for the klingon scout ship he (quote ) said " I recall that somewhere in the original series an episode where the romulan's and the klingon's had a treaty and exchanged technology, so it could have been possible this is where they gained (klingons) the cloaking technology.

I assume this would have included the idea of a bird of prey ship.

I know, I know it's nitpicking to the nth degree, but the fact b&b chose to use a bird of prey class of ship, just rubs me the wrong way, and demonstrates a lack of originality. In other words, they rely far too much on their experiences of writng for the future time period show's to make the show new and different.

IMHO

[TomMarg]

Could'nt agree more, You nailed it right on the head!

[Dan Stack]

*Shrugs shoulders*

I think I'm going to have to agree to disagree with most of the people here.

I quite enjoy "Enterprise". And I don't think I would have enjoyed another 24th century series, in unknown space or otherwise. Technology was rapidly approaching magic.

I hope my liking "Enterprise" doesn't lower people's opinion of me or my intelligence as a result.

[prophetsteve]

I'm not sure how the term photon torpedo ruined the episode.

I didn't I think everyone has assumed that in Trek history, all the races developed along the same track; that more or less Klingons, Vulcans, Humans, Romulans, etc etc all developed similar tech within the same time frame.

Enterprise, instead takes the Babylon 5 view of things, that humanity is the backward nation amongst starfarers. Yeah, they have warp drive and transporters, but they lack high tech torpedos, tractor beams, as well as deflector technology.
Its not so hard to believe, since the series is less than a century after developing warp technology.

Ditto with Bird of Prey. Yes, I know it originally referred to a Romulan vessel, but it was Star Trek III which did the damage there.

Bird of Prey and Warbird has been attributed to Klingon ships in Enterprise episodes. It does bother me but not really that much. The only excuse I have is that the translators have translated the klingon words in that fashion. Who is to say that the Romulan word for their BoP and Klingon word for BoP are similiar. Just with languages on Earth, perhaps when translated into "English" the two words have close but ultimately different meanings.

Maybe the Romulan word means more of a specific bird (like the city/state names to designate classes of American warships - except for birds to match the Romulan fasination with Birds) while the Klingon word means more of the purpose of the vessel - A bird (starship) of prey (privateering or plundering). Perhaps BoP was the how the Universal Translator translated the class name - the word that the Vulcans translated as "Raptor" - perhaps neither is a proper translation... and the Klingon mis-translation could have lasted to STIII, where it became the Federation term for a B'Rel class scout.

Must be the Dr. Who fan in me which seeks to explain with such issues...

Its the RPG man in me. I want to rationalize it out for the inevitable time I have to run a DecTrek campaign in the Enterprise-era and I should have answers in advance

[TomMarg]

No worries Dan, I certianly don't think any less of you. You have a fantastic site, visited by many wonderful and civil fan's from what I see. I think you've done a great job with this site.

[Dan Stack]

Not my site, just a moderator. It's Don's baby. And he despises "Enterprise"!

My comment was somewhat in jest. I've seen such mud thrown over such silly stuff as taste in TV shows (I barely post on trekbbs.com as a result.

[TomMarg]

I stand corrected, but you get the idea and that stands for all the trekrpg staff as well.

[K'lek of Vulcan]

Originally posted by Kronok
I am with you Tom.

However, I am still going ot watch for one reason: It is Star Trek.

Star Trek is like pizza…

When it’s good, it’s really good.

When it’s bad, it’s still pretty f@ckin’ good!!!

Except for Voyager.... it has anchovies... and I HATE anchovies

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by K'lek of Vulcan


Except for Voyager.... it has anchovies... and I HATE anchovies

And? You can pick anchovies off a Pizza, and that still leaves you with a Star Trek pizza. But without anchovies.

?????????????????????????


Is it me or has this conversation taken a weird turn?

Back on Topic.

Thing is TomMarg, that the film novelisations and books have NEVER been considered canon, so what may well be true in your series as a good historical point will be unlikely to appear in an episode or film... As RPGers, we can use this to enhance our gaming universes, however if we do that we must accept the possibility that we may be contradicted in a future episode.

So theres no use complaining, whats gone is gone, whats done is done, the only thing left is to decide which is the most important, TV canon or game canon... Pick one and ignore any contradictions...

Thats how I survived and enjoyed 7 years of Voyager (greatly enabled by 5 years of DS9 mind), and thats how I plan on watching enterprise, to use the pizza analagy again, I'll pick off the mushrooms due to my allergy, and enjoy the pizza for what it is, a Sci Fi TV fix (or possibly a tasty meal, I am getting confused now).

[C5]

Ack! Now this thread has turned into one of these ones that make me hungry ! At least I now understand why I don't hate Voyager... I like anchovies

Back on tracks, about the photon torpedoes issue, maybe one thing is that what they call photon torpedo in ENT is not at all the same thing as in TNG or TOS. Some names tend to stick, while the thing called like that has evolved a lot.

For instance, we use the word "Nuclear bomb" (or atom bomb, or nuke) to design the Hiroshima bomb as well as the current arsenal, while I guess there are some difference between them.
Or even more : the word "cannon" (I hope I have the spelling correct, I'm not meaning the thing the series are and the books aren't here ) is used for the gunpowder thingies that were on pirate ships as well as for the Air Defense Cannon you'll find on an air carrier.... They're not quite the same, and we usually don't accuse our history books of breaking continuity because they say the gallions were armed with cannons

I don't remember if photon torpedoes are mentionned in TOS, though.

[TomMarg]

I love anchovies too, but not on pizza

Dan: I see your point, but the only reason I mentioned the novel, is because a trek movie was made from it, hence more likely it to be accepted as 'canon'. But I agree there has been far too much continuity errors made, for the sake of telling a story. Not that I mind that much, telling a good story is important.

C5: photon torpedoes made up part of the main armament on the constitution class in the tos, I'm surprised you did'nt know that. Or did I misunderstand.

I can see a pizza poll coming on though....

[C5]

Originally posted by TomMarg
C5: photon torpedoes made up part of the main armament on the constitution class in the tos, I'm surprised you did'nt know that. Or did I misunderstand.

Guilty as charged
You see, I happen to be one of those abominations of Mother Nature who discovered TNG first, then TOS. So sometimes I end up forgetting on wich show some technological features appeared . Specifically, I suddenly found myself unable to remember whether Kirk used torpedoes or photon torpedoes.

Need... more... sleep... should...play... less.... (no Kirk imitation intended here )

[AslanC]

Interesting thread guys

Star Trek III clarification for you. In the original script it called for Kruge and gang to sneak into Romulan Space and steal the Bird of Prey. This was to be in line with the sneaky (not yet honorable) Klingons

Harve Bennet I suppose was te guy who said "It will take to long so cut it" The writers just forgot to change the name of the ship is all.

No biggie

[Publius]

I guess I am in the dwindling minority that still watch the show with some modicum of interest. There are some episodes that I like, some I like less, and some that I have already avoided. This makes it... gosh, just like almost every other Trek series (Voyager is not as bad when you pick which episodes to watch and which to treat as bad holofiction adaptations, TNG: Seasons 1 & 2 had some real crap episodes, TOS: All I can say is "Omega Glory" etc. etc.) and the Movies (Star Trek V: The Mistake, not a huge fan of TMP either). Note that you are free to disagree with anything in those parenthesis, those are all personal opinion from one individual. All I am saying is that I think many people who like Trek that have talked to have said something similar about their favorite and less-than-favorite episodes and series.

Ultimately, Enterprise will be gauged on its totality. We might add a caveat, like "Season X started off nice, but the extended arc on blah blah was just baaaad" or "It was mostly crap with a few good episodes" or even "It was an entirely bad idea to start with and never got much better. Few sim spots in an otherwise useless effort." Who knows? TNG's first season never really made me want to sing and dance either, and I can't remember how many people pronounced that it (and DS9 and Voyager) were going to be crap duirng the first season.

The continuity thing is a bit more troubling to me. B&B know nothing about Trek. This is very true, and really unfortunate as well because they don't seem to care about it either. B&B have treated Trek fans poorly. Again true and unfortunate. B&B told us to "expect something NEW! and IMPROVED! and have not delivered. True & Unfortunate.

However: There were things we held sacred in TOS which were sometimes modified in later Trek: The Klingons being perhaps the best example of this. Not only was this change significant in appearance ("We don't discuss it" is a cute way to get around it, but hardly the definitive 'fix'), but also culture (from ruthless/dishonorable to honorable). Do we quibble and quake? Nope. Why not? I don't know about the rest of you, but I liked the change, 'continuity busting' or not.

As for something "new" and "different", gosh I figured that was all sales hype BS anyway. Anyone out there really believed that yarn? The real problem is that they implied that "new" and "different" somehow made what other Trek there is seem insignificant. "Oh that just Old Trek..." I for one hope that I see some of the same things from other series episodes -- the Prime Directive stories which have been told thus far being an excellent example of this -- told in a way that is new and different. The stories should be about what makes Star Trek 'Trek', what differentiates it from Star Wars, B5 or other Scifi: human stories, larger social issues, a vision of the future which focuses on 'hope' etc. Not that these other programs do not have them, they are just not told in the same way that Trek does.

In the end, like Kronok, I will watch it because even when it does not meet the standards I have set for "good" Trek (and whatever standards you use are fine with me!) it is still Trek, and even when it is bad it is still pretty darned good. Although I remember that comment being about something other than Pizza

[tonyg]

Has anyone considered the idea that perhaps the lack of continuity is deliberate?

With the TIMEWAR idea, is seems likely that ENTERPRISE will allow the series to develope along a different timeline that the orginal series.

That could make it very orginal indeed.


I for one am sort of hoping they do a TIMETRAVEL crossover episode. It could be neat to see a 23rd or 24th Century ship (Starfleet ship or otherwise) show up, and watch the inqusitive 22nd century crew come up on the low tech side of the Prime Directive. Could be a nice epsiode, and a nice "sweeps" idea-especially if they used characters from the previous series for the crossover.