MAPS:Debate 1: Size of the Federation

[C5]

I agree with Diamond that there can be many definitions of "Federation space".

For one thing, known or explored space can be much, much bigger than the Federation itself. For instance, I guess the Klingon Empire counts as known space, yet none of it belong to the Federation. So I agree with Diamond : 19% of the galaxy seems a resonable figure for the space explored by or known to the Federation (that could make something like one half of the Beta Quadrant, and one quarter of the Alpha Quadrant).

Second, there may be a difference between Federation borders and Federation occupied space. Think to the USA in 1800 : the borders were clearly defined, and the area of the country was huge, yet very few of it was actually known.
That way, the Federation may have reached remote star systems and established defenses on them (for instance during a war), while skipping entire sectors in the process.
This could especially apply to the "Amobea" and "Swiss cheese" Federation views.

Finally, there is always the technobabble factor. Bajor may be only 50 ly from Earth, but there may be some random subspace thingy that would make the trip much longer (like, for instance, having to avoid the Badlands). Or there could be some "space currents" or "winds" (see the forgot-wich-greek-letter-it-was factor that affects warp speed), wich could make travels much faster in some direction than in others; thus, Bajor would be reachable only with the warp speed from the warp table (that would make it roughly 2 weeks from Earth at warp 9 TNG scale, and 25 days at warp 9 TOS scale), while travels to Q'onos could be 100 times faster (I still think the "4 days at warp 4" is a mistake however).

So far, I haven't voted - I don't really have a clue about wich theory to choose.

[SIR SIG]

Originally posted by C5
I agree with Diamond that there can be many definitions of "Federation space".

For one thing, known or explored space can be much, much bigger than the Federation itself. For instance, I guess the Klingon Empire counts as known space, yet none of it belong to the Federation. So I agree with Diamond : 19% of the galaxy seems a resonable figure for the space explored by or known to the Federation (that could make something like one half of the Beta Quadrant, and one quarter of the Alpha Quadrant).

Second, there may be a difference between Federation borders and Federation occupied space. Think to the USA in 1800 : the borders were clearly defined, and the area of the country was huge, yet very few of it was actually known.
That way, the Federation may have reached remote star systems and established defenses on them (for instance during a war), while skipping entire sectors in the process.
This could especially apply to the "Amobea" and "Swiss cheese" Federation views.

Finally, there is always the technobabble factor. Bajor may be only 50 ly from Earth, but there may be some random subspace thingy that would make the trip much longer (like, for instance, having to avoid the Badlands). Or there could be some "space currents" or "winds" (see the forgot-wich-greek-letter-it-was factor that affects warp speed), wich could make travels much faster in some direction than in others; thus, Bajor would be reachable only with the warp speed from the warp table (that would make it roughly 2 weeks from Earth at warp 9 TNG scale, and 25 days at warp 9 TOS scale), while travels to Q'onos could be 100 times faster (I still think the "4 days at warp 4" is a mistake however).

So far, I haven't voted - I don't really have a clue about wich theory to choose.

Well 19% might be pushing it but it was mentioned onscreen but yeah as total 'we know about space' it s not to bad.

I'm starting to think that the Federation has a 50 odd ly radius 'clearly defined' 'home turf' space. Then there's all the stuff outside that which has been explored, colonized and even brought into the fold as new members.

So as Amoeba/Swiss cheese theories go, they are pretty good since the bigwigs like Rick Sternbach and Geoff Mandel go by the tendril theme to.

The Greek letter being 'Chi'
Well supposedly people on a warp 5 runabout can get to Earth and comeback on a warp 9+ Defiant in under a week. So a little manipulation needs to happen between Earh and Bajor anyways.

[Imagus]

Looking good SIR SIG.

The closeness of Bajor was always an oddity to me, but an additional element I considered was that because of the ongoing threats from Romulus and Qo'noS, the area "east" of the core worlds is very well explored and settled, simply to contain the threats. Expansion would tend to follow the borders as both sides try to outflank the other. Following the peace with the Klingons, and the withdrawal of the Romulans, expansion begins in a more concerted manner to the "west" - before running smack into the Cardies. Most modern expansion is probably to "north" and "west" and the Fed probably goes quite a long way in that direction.

Then again, I do favour the "warp lane" theory (Chi factor and all that), so Bajor could be somewhat further away on that basis. If not, it could be that Bajor is quite close, but expansion followed the warp lanes as they were discovered. Bajor is not on one from Earth, so contact was relatively late.

[SIR SIG]

Good point, since you don't really hear about the Bajorans and Cardassians until atleast the 2330's and 40's (Picard on the Stargazer ran from a Cardassian ship).

With all this new info/thoughts I'll need to rethink some of my maps

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by SIR SIG
With all this new info/thoughts I'll need to rethink some of my maps

WEEEeeeee, and we're off again. Sometimes I wonder if we're going to finish this project we've started.

Some days it's like "almost there", the next we're "but what about those guys". The Never Ending Project- Mapping for Star Trek. As long as we're all still having fun, right?

(Some day, I'd love to take the finished product to the producers and say "NA na NA na Naaaa, now can we keep some continuity?)

[C5]

Originally posted by Phoenix
(Some day, I'd love to take the finished product to the producers and say "NA na NA na Naaaa, now can we keep some continuity?)

I fear the producers would then anwer : "Oh, great. Thanks a lot. Now this Chi factor is a really good idea. We're gonne make it range between 0.001 and 1,000,000,000,000, and be able to vary from one day to another. Now what was this continuity thing you were talking about ?"

At least that's what I would do as Narrator if my players came to me with such a product...

[Imagus]

Originally posted by SIR SIG
Good point, since you don't really hear about the Bajorans and Cardassians until atleast the 2330's and 40's (Picard on the Stargazer ran from a Cardassian ship).

LUGTrek puts first contact with the Cardies at 2335...

[calguard66]

Is my math that bad?

Volume of a rectangle is LxWxH... 20x20x20=8000...

So what's the problem?

[SIR SIG]

Originally posted by calguard66
Is my math that bad?

Volume of a rectangle is LxWxH... 20x20x20=8000...

So what's the problem?

Nothing's wrong with the math; just it would equal exactly 1 sector

[qerlin]

Originally posted by Imagus
Looking good SIR SIG.

...an additional element I considered was that because of the ongoing threats from Romulus and Qo'noS, the area "east" of the core worlds is very well explored and settled, simply to contain the threats. Expansion would tend to follow the borders as both sides try to outflank the other. Following the peace with the Klingons, and the withdrawal of the Romulans, expansion begins in a more concerted manner to the "west" - before running smack into the Cardies. Most modern expansion is probably to "north" and "west" and the Fed probably goes quite a long way in that direction.

I agree with this assessment, Imagus!

[SIR SIG]

Well in TOS times they were exploring way out on the frontier.

eg. TOS: Squire of Gothos; they mention being 900 lys out.

Assuming Rigel XII is the real Rigel, then in TOS: Mudd's Women they were some 700+ lys out.

Also as another point, the Federation was in contact with the Sheliak around 2255. In which the Federation cedes a planet (Tau Cygni V) to the Sheliak as part of the Treaty of Armens. Now this planet is only 68 ly away (while Sheliak itself is a whopping 800+ ly) and using my DW mapping would be in the vicinity of Ferenginar.

[C5]

Originally posted by calguard66
Is my math that bad?

Volume of a rectangle is LxWxH... 20x20x20=8000...

So what's the problem?

Well if you assume each star system is 4 ly away from another, then in a 20x20 square, you can 25 star system on average, wich gives us 125 systems for a 20 ly-sided cube (assuming of course every system are evenly parted). Wich would cram every Fed member inside this cube an no one else

As for TOS distance travel, I fear they may not always be accurate. I remember Spock stating in All Our Yestardays that his homeworld was millions of ly away... unless he was also taking the time shift into account (he was stranded in the far past when saying that).

[tonyg]

Keep in mind that 4 light years apart is a direct line distance, while a secotr map is a 3D cube. If there is a star 4ly away in one direction, there isn't necessarily another equal close in a diffenert vector.Sort of like trying to divide inches into cubic feet-the numbers will be off. For 3D measure replace 4ly with a 96cubic ly (or round to 100 cubic ly) and the number of starts per sector (8000 cuic ly) drops to around 80.

Also, 4 light years apart is good for an area such as near Earth, but isn't really a good average density. The density of stars varies considerable with what part of the galaxy you are in (we live in a realtively dense area, although it is even dernse towars the core). 7-15 Ly apart is probably more common.

FOr some of the outer sector of the Federation, especially those towards the rim of the galaxy or off of our "sparial arm" there could be very few starts in a sector indeed.

[Paul]

Originally posted by calguard66
Is my math that bad?

No...but mine apparently is.

Couldn't remember how to calculate the Volume of a Sphere...

Paul hangs head in shame...

Having realised this, I'd lke to humbly withdraw my Vote of "Realistic" and enter a vote of "Large"...

[SIR SIG]

No problems Paul, I had to look the formulas up myself just to be sure