MAPS:Debate 1: Size of the Federation

[AslanC]

Originally posted by qerlin
And didn't the episodes happen close to each other (I think...)

Actually "Arena" (Gorns) was 1st Season and "The Tholian Web" (Tholians) was 3rd season.

Still cool map.

[SIR SIG]

Okay the current map is my thoughts on where I'm going until Geoff Mandel's maps get here

Thus I'm going with a small Federation ala Ds9 but with large extensions and not as small as Enterprise and Rich Sternbach make out

The political boundaries I drew were just rough lines to give you all an idea where everything layed. Only the pre DW Cardassian borders are fairly accurate.

Aslan: The sector boxes are 20 ly x 40 ly (In actuality they are just 2 standard 20x20x20 cubes/sectors together ala DS9 maps)

Qerlin: The Enterprise cruised around quite a bit Although I have no real info on the Gorns. Info on the Tholians seem to indicate a closeness to Klingon space.

Thanks for the comments

[SIR SIG]

As a side note to mapping and exploration. How far out do you think the Deep Space explorers went when sent on there 5+ year missions?

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by SIR SIG
As a side note to mapping and exploration. How far out do you think the Deep Space explorers went when sent on there 5+ year missions?

Era dependant, Pike's time not real far out at all really, Kirk's time at best 50 ly from any know SB. Kirk's 2nd/Sulu's time...mabie 75-150 ly out, Picard's time 300-500 ly, Janeway's time..."To Infinity and Beyond" (sorry, just had to). This isn't taking in to account warp speed, or any thing else along those lines, just basicly communication lag time vs. confidance in the technology and training with such. I'm sure there are several other factors to include but this is where I'd start my thought processes.

[SIR SIG]

In one particular episode of Enterprise they say they are 70 odd lightyears out from Earth!

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by SIR SIG
In one particular episode of Enterprise they say they are 70 odd lightyears out from Earth!

Then my theory comes close...70 ly from earth, 50 ly from the nearest starbase.

Or are we talking about that new enterprise show ... I wouldn't be suprised if they face and beat the Borg back to the stone age in that show...

[SIR SIG]

Yeah that Enterprise but LOL anyway

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Doing a bit of threadomancy here

It has really been a long time since I saw any discussions about how people see the size and shape of the UFP. So I am a bit curious how people look at it now.

My own take on it is that in Pike's days, the federation is quite much a spherical shape. But as the Romulans and Klingons get in the way for expansion, it has to expand out in the other direction. So in TNG, it covers a volume of about 8000x5000x800 lightyears. Earth is in a corner, pretty much like Washington D.C. is in a corner of the US .

But he UFP is a bit of a Swiss Cheese, or even as just foam, as a lot of the systems within that volume are not a part of the UFP in any way. Those systems might even be unfriendly.

The Klingons and the Romulans expands by conquest. So while having much smaller volumes, everything within their space is under their direct control, or is a puppet planet.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I've always found the drawing of contiguous borders around interstellar polities kind of ridiculous, at least on anything less than an all-galactic scale. First of all, zones of control are going to depend almost entirely on technological ability to sense and effect that area. Depending on the deep-space sensory/communications infrastructure of the TOS era versus the TNG, 'Federation controlled space' may have greatly increased in volume based solely on better sensors and faster ships operating from the same planetary locations. The size of the bubble of 'control' increases. On the other hand, there will probably be hundreds (thousands?) of systems that never get a second look once an exploration ship has passed through and found them empty. The holes outvolume the cheese!

The Klingons and the Romulans expands by conquest. So while having much smaller volumes, everything within their space is under their direct control, or is a puppet planet.

Conquest isn't necessarily going to go as well with each world, and that's also assuming an even distribution of interesting worlds.

[Cpt. Lundgren]

I've always found the drawing of contiguous borders around interstellar polities kind of ridiculous, at least on anything less than an all-galactic scale. First of all, zones of control are going to depend almost entirely on technological ability to sense and effect that area. Depending on the deep-space sensory/communications infrastructure of the TOS era versus the TNG, 'Federation controlled space' may have greatly increased in volume based solely on better sensors and faster ships operating from the same planetary locations. The size of the bubble of 'control' increases. On the other hand, there will probably be hundreds (thousands?) of systems that never get a second look once an exploration ship has passed through and found them empty. The holes outvolume the cheese!

Conquest isn't necessarily going to go as well with each world, and that's also assuming an even distribution of interesting worlds.

What I am thinking about when I talk about "more compact" is how a system is threated. A pre-warp civilization would probably not be much more than an easy mark for the Romulans och Klingons. But I guess a world within Romulan space might not face a direct invasion, but more of a "X-file" situation. My interpretation of the TNG episode "The outrageous Okona" is that it all takes place within Federation space.

So besides the limitation of scanner range, there will be a lot of worlds who would take an issue to having a UFP scanner close. Due to the UFP's way of respecting that systems sovereignty of their own system, they would most likely refrain from putting one up.

While Romulan and Klingon space also have more holes than coverage from sensors, I interpret it as any ship either have their authorization to be there, or they are trespassing.

[jkp1187]

I've always found the drawing of contiguous borders around interstellar polities kind of ridiculous, at least on anything less than an all-galactic scale. First of all, zones of control are going to depend almost entirely on technological ability to sense and effect that area. Depending on the deep-space sensory/communications infrastructure of the TOS era versus the TNG, 'Federation controlled space' may have greatly increased in volume based solely on better sensors and faster ships operating from the same planetary locations. The size of the bubble of 'control' increases. On the other hand, there will probably be hundreds (thousands?) of systems that never get a second look once an exploration ship has passed through and found them empty. The holes outvolume the cheese!



Conquest isn't necessarily going to go as well with each world, and that's also assuming an even distribution of interesting worlds.

Agree -- especially when you consider how ridiculous it is to draw a border across hundreds of cubic light-years of empty space.

When I was running a campaign, I drew up a map (as reasonably to scale as I could make it,) and came to the conclusion that a neutral zone across space only made sense as a 'defense identification zone', and not as a true border. The only 'border' that could reasonably be defended assuming the kinds of ships we're talking about (and also assuming that there weren't literally billions of Enterprise-class ships available in each fleet,) I figured would be a single star system. So I tossed the 'canon' maps because they just seemed silly to me.

What Star Trek needs, I figured, was not a rigid cold war-style geopolitical map, but a more dynamic and fluid one. Think of it more as a large ocean, dotted here and there with small islands that could support life. In planning static defense, you wouldn't draw a line across the water, you would instead focus your defense efforts around each of those islands (with ships able to cross at will as long as they didn't get too close to the 'territorial waters' -- and the land-based defenses -- for each island.) It also gives a ready excuse as to why/how a Romulan ship could end up passing close to the Sol system. Ships could range as far as they could go as long as there was a friendly island on which it could obtain fuel and supplies.