MAPS:Debate 1: Size of the Federation

[Phoenix]

Ok, after a little research (and talking with "Sir Map Maker" (by the way, when did you get knighted? ) this is the list of governments in the Alpha/Beta area.

Acamarian, Bajor, Barzan, Boslic, Breen, Caldonian, Cardassian, Chalnoth, Federation, Ferengi, Gorn, J'Naii, Klingon, Kriosians, Ktarian, Lurians, Melkotian, Mizarian, Naussican, Pakled, Romulan, Satarran, Sheliak, S’ona, Tholian, Talarian, Tamarian, and lastly Tzenkethi

All these political bodies are what I would say fill the 11 (or 19)% of the galaxy mentioned.

[Balok]

In one TOS episode that I clearly remember (the uninspired "Miri"), Kirk mentions that the Enterprise is "hundreds of light years from Earth".

It's sure possible (in fact, it's likely) that Kirk & crew routinely explored outside the boundaries of Federation space. However, I doubt they explored more than 1 "Federation Diameter" outside their borders. There wouldn't be much point in going so far afield without studying and incorporating the intervening area (if appropriate). The Federation probably couldn't hold onto anything interesting it found that far out.

This suggests to me that at that time, the border of Federation space was probably more than a hundred light years from Earth. And it's certain to have grown since then.

[SIR SIG]

Originally posted by Fesarius
In one TOS episode that I clearly remember (the uninspired "Miri"), Kirk mentions that the Enterprise is "hundreds of light years from Earth".

It's sure possible (in fact, it's likely) that Kirk & crew routinely explored outside the boundaries of Federation space. However, I doubt they explored more than 1 "Federation Diameter" outside their borders. There wouldn't be much point in going so far afield without studying and incorporating the intervening area (if appropriate). The Federation probably couldn't hold onto anything interesting it found that far out.

This suggests to me that at that time, the border of Federation space was probably more than a hundred light years from Earth. And it's certain to have grown since then.

Interesting

In TOS they are definately 'way out' for instance TOS: Mudd's Women they go to Rigel which is way out on the frontier (using the real Rigel) that would be around 700-800 ly (depending on what star chart they used at the time).

In another episode, TOS: Squire of Gothos they mention 900 ly as well.

[calguard66]

Originally posted by SIR SIG


Nothing's wrong with the math; just it would equal exactly 1 sector

I didn't realize the sized of sectors was canon.

In any case, it changes nothing. The Federation can be a cube 20 ly on a side and still "strech across 8000 ly".

My point being, there is no way to tell how big the Federation is... as warp speed="the speed of plot", the Federation="the size of plot".

[SIR SIG]

I appreciate your viewpoint Calguard but:

a) Sectors are at least 20ly across on one edge (various sources) [perhaps this explains the 20x40 ly sectors from DS9? not a cube but a rectangular prism]

b) Although ironically 20ly cube would equal 8000 ly cubed. I find it almost impossible that the Federation could be contained in 1 sector for over 200 years growth. Although this could simply be the 20ly radius from Sol as the core worlds to!

Hopefully Geoff Mandel's star charts will shed some light on this

[AslanC]

OKay I am confused...math was never my strong suit.

So if the sector is 20lyx20lyx20ly how many sectors would there be in the Federation?

[SIR SIG]

Well the highest canon mentioned sector on screen is in the 32000 range.

Although common activity seems to centre around the 1000-10000 range.

I explored a spiral association pattern of sector arrangement sometime ago to explain how farflung sectors could easily be reached.

This was the basis of my earlier 'large' maps. Newer maps use a variation of this.

[AslanC]

So if the sectors were all laid out like that Square map from the TNG Officer's Guide, the Federation could be 20,000 ly by 20,000 ly? And that is the conservative estimate?

Am I off base here?

This is the map I am talking about.

http://www.stdimension.de/Cartograph...e/map_mw3d.gif

It seems to me that the Klingons and romulans only have about a Sector each... Or am I misreading the map?

[C5]

Well if I understand this map, the Romulan and Klingon sectors we see are the ones where their respective homeworlds are. There could be many more sectors behind, only they don't appear on the map.

This is how I see it anyway.
BTW, this map's UFP core world locations seem to differ significantly from some of the locations from the maps referred to on this thread.

[SIR SIG]

Are yes, here the 'great' canon map as seen in TNG and slightly modified in DS9.

Its a picture only! Sizes and stellar locations are not accurate in the least.

Not unless they've used the negative print maps from the SFTM.

ie. if you rotated it on its core/rim axis; then it would be more in line with standard maps except for a couple of stars and the Klingons location.

In this particular case the 'sectors' might actually be the 'sector grids'. Which according to Rick Sternbach via Geoff Mandel are:

"...the largest unit in Rick's scheme is a "sector grid," about 5,000
ly x 3,600 ly x 4,500 ly. Ultimately, it gets broken down (in 3D, of course)
into sectors about 20 ly on a side."

Of course its probably a pretty picture that was never meant to be scrutinized.

[Phoenix]

I apologies in advance if this upsets anybody.

Out of all the "canon" maps I've seen, this on has to be the second worst example of Trek consistency (the first is the overhead view where the Federation covers some 30% of the galaxy in trapazoid like areas). This is just my opinion though, if you like it, use it.

If my memory is correct, the systems on the original map didn't have lables, did they?

On an unrelated note, is the "First Federation" independent from the "United Federation of Planets", or are they now part of the same political body "The Federation"?

[SIR SIG]

Yes both these 'canon' maps were nothing more then 'eye candy' in the mapping sense

I believe the map in question with the 'sectors' was done up by the author of the Sector 001 website.

In other news:

The First Federation is a race met in TOS named that and never heard from again

[qerlin]

So when can we expect to see the next SIGnificant changes in your maps? It's about time for another iteration...ain't it?

[SIR SIG]

Infact I already have a new map in progress

That shows the relationship between Earth and Bajor and the DW.

I could post a prelim if anyone is interested???

Especially when Bajor is but a scant 4 or so sectors away from Earth.

ps: As many have seen before, I make the most out of the material to hand with the reality of an Astonomical background. In some cases YMMV!

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by SIR SIG
Yes both these 'canon' maps were nothing more then 'eye candy' in the mapping sense

No argument there.

In other news:

The First Federation is a race met in TOS named that and never heard from again

Damn shame that, the concept was a great one, a non-hostile large govenrment, next to the Federation. However after re-reading my post I guess I should have mentioned something about 'what everyones opinion was', should The First Federation be seperate or part of the UFP? It's been ages sense I've seen the episode (Corbinite Manuver?), so the exact dialoge from the end has faded from my memory.