MAPS:Debate 1: Size of the Federation

[SIR SIG]

After reviewing Owen's new Stellar Cartography thread. It caused me to think about a few things both old and new when it comes to TREK mapmaking.

So here is number one in a series of polls akin to the ones I did last year. Although we now have this nice polling software now and the old threads are AWOL.

So comment away or just vote

[SIR SIG]

I voted for the 8000ly figure since:

a) its canon now
b) Picard's statement is open to great interpretation.

ie. ....150 members across 8000ly...

That could mean a straight line or an area or even a perimetre. Let alone if its the actual size of the Federation or infact the currently explored space at the time.

But since Trek has been messing it up for years now. I would seriously have to say small core areas eg. 50ly radius and large colonial expansion areas. This would also work well with all the major powers.

[K'iirk]

I vote of the 200+ly Bajor-K7, due to the it may sound daft but, Warp Speed, if the size of the Federation was 8000ly in size they the logicist of serving that size of area is to great to consider. I the limits are the speed of comms. In the Old West a government was only as good as the fastest horse and rider. The same in Star Trek, ok in Star Trek TOS Kirk was often on his own due to time lag on the comms. Starship Captains was train to think on their feet. In the time of the TNG, the comms are better but still limited, because Picard was out of comms range from time to time, but not as often as Kirk. Sisko was in near perfect cooms time (i.e. no lag) with Starfleet Command in DS9. So Picard in one statement set a size, that could have just been ignored later, as Data comment in Encounter at Farpoint, 'being in the class of '78'. The small Fedaration size as had more references to it than the single statement of the 8000ly size.

[Captain Blake]

Large. That spreads Starfleet out over a big area, and since ships travel at the speed of plot, that doesn't matter.

I picture the Fed as a large blobby mass, with tendrils to all kinds of different places. We just happen to be nearer to Bajor that would seem to make sense for the size.

Alex

[Dan Gurden]

'200+ly Bajor-K7'

I dont feel, that this is a valid calculation.

The Orb of time clearly has 'trans-location' qualities to its use... After all, the Defiant went from deep within Cardassian Space to K-7 instantly... they didn't travel all that way blind.

And in Kira's experience with the Orb of Time, she went from DS9 to the surface of planet Bajor... Rather than appearing in space at the mouth of the wormhole.

Unless of course theres a line of Dialogue that confirms the 200+ ly figure that I simply dont remember, in which case I am talking out of my arse, so ignore me...

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

I would go with the 1000 ly figure as well. Though I would guess that's probably not linear (ie lots of scattered colonies and things), with some of the areas unsettled, or very sparesly settled.

[qerlin]

I figure that if some of that area is actually Z axis, the UFP could be in the realistic scale.

Though an 8000 ly sphere would have something like a 13 ly radius, wouldn't it (not a math guy...) Conversely, a 1000ly radius gives you a whopping huge voulme to work with and would work with the big-ass statement in the one episode. (About 4.1 x 10/9 ly volume...I think.) This also might explain the 'rim of the galaxy' crap -- they were going zentih or nadir...

I figure that the UFP has explored out farther than 1000ly but the actual UFP worlds are ostly close to the core worlds, with a few scattered here and there, since the Fed only allows warp capable worlds (for the most part.)

When you add the 3rd dimension t the equation, more of these toss of lines from the show and movies make sense. So though I voted the realistic, with the 3D view, I guess I also vote for the large, as well...if we're talking volume...

Another thought, loking at the Owen map -- could be the Fed is about 1000 ly from Rommie to Cardie space, but stretches out to about 8000ly on the coreward axis -- more of a cylinder -- then it should be about a volume of 628 million ly cubed or so. (Remember -- not a math guy, so don't blast me for errors, doing my best...)

[calguard66]

I've allways assumed that the 8000ly remark meant 8000ly of volume. It would make no sense for a spacefarer like Picard to refer to the area of the Federation in 2 dimensional terms.

Thus, the Federation could easily be 20x20x20ly.

[Phoenix]

Well some people already know my thoughts on the subject.

For those of you who don't, I'm still sticking with the 10-8000 ly "accross at the greatest point". For a more terrestral view, think of the US, if you measure the distance from Barrow Point Alaska, to Key West Florada you end up with a huge number of km. (not to mention a large chunk of Canada is in there too). For an even greater example New York City to Hawaii...lots of distance there, lots of it international waters.

Whos to say the Federation doesn't have the Swiss cheese effect, there are lots of other people out there grabing "space" also.

[Owen E Oulton]

Well, my feeling on the subject should be obvious - I use the two "official" figures of 8000 and 10,000 light years as the long and short axes of an ellipse. As for Picard's statement being volume, nah! "Across" is a linear term.

Now, with only 150 member worlds (this figure manifestly doesn't take into account associate members, colonies, protectorates and such), the Federation clearly doesn't fill all that space. There are independant worlds and pocket empires within the overall boundaries, and other stellar powers (like the Klingons) almost certainly interpenetrate (the Romulan Star Empire doesn't - the infamous Neutral Zone creates a 1 light-year deep buffer zone).

[Paul]

I voted for the "realistic" varitation because - unless my maths is shot and I've forgotten how to calculate the volume of a sphere - an approximate sphere of 1000ly diameter gives a rough volume of 7000ly. When you tweak the numbers a little, you can get the 8000ly Federation while maintaining the "realistic" size...

[SIR SIG]

Wow more response then I would've thought in 24hrs.

K'iirk: To true, 8000 ly as a linear line seems to be pushing it. But projected SF ship infrastructure is around the 8000 mark according to SD.

Captain Blake: The 'amoeba' / tendrils aspect fits perfectly with a core area and numerous 'exploration tendrils'.

Dan Gurden: Hate to say it but there is dialogue in DS9: Trials and Tribulations. I believe Dax's statement is along the lines of '...over 200 ly away...' with respect to previous space (Cardassian/Bajor) and Deep Space Station K7.

Capt Daniel Hunter: Agreed, a core area with colonial extensions that in some regard add up to 8000 ly.

Qerlin: 3D and nadir/zenith respects; we can certainly tweek the 8000 ly to make something manageable.

Calgurad66: Suprising how in cubic volume 8000 ly is on 20x20x20 ly or just one sector

Phoenix: Always a pleasure to hear your thoughts 8000 ly as a 'greatest extent' or currently explored area seems explainable.

Owen E Oulton: Granted that an ellipse of that magnitude could work but how would you explain both Bajor's great distance and yet closenest to Earth? On the other hand this gives room for far systems like the 'real' Deneb.

Paul: Tweaking is definately possible in the TREK universe

Okay as a rough guide, if 8000 ly was the volume of a largely linear sphere then using the equation: 4/3.Pi.r^3 (volume of a sphere)
Then the radius would be just a small 43.6 ly! Truly a small Federation
Although that could jibe with a projected distance of Sol-Bajor 50 ly. Perhaps B&B in their one moment of truth actually used a figure properly to calculate soemthing; pity its bogus.

As a finale calculation using the area of a circle equal to 8000 ly. Then using the formula: Pi.r^2 you get a radius roughly 50.3. Sound familiar? Comes from the Ds9 TM!

[Diamond]

Very Large: 19% Galaxy explored (TNG: The Dauphin

Explored <> settled by the Federation. I agree the 19% explored is cannon, but that's a different question than size of the Federation.

Very Small: Bajor-Earth 50.3 ly / Earth-Qo'nos 4 days

Given the density of the galaxy, and given that Bajor is at the edge of the (central) Federation, I do not believe there's enough star systems in that volume to account for the number of different star systems we've seen on screen!

As for the three other values, my guess is that they're all three correct... depending on how you define the "Federation" It may be there is a few extremely remote colonies such that they're 10000ly across, but the intervening distance is NOT all settled. Similarly, if you define the "edge of the Federation" as the point where settlements are close enough to have reasonable communication between them, 1000 ly diameter might be correct. And if you define the edge of the Federation as such that the Federation has a tight border with sensor webs and instantaneous communication boosted by connected relays with a starbase system network offering complete coverage, 200+ ly Bajor area-DSK7 might be about right.

[Highway Hoss]

My preference is for the theory advanced by Christian Ruehl at his Cartography website. He argues that the Federation consists of a central core consisting of the founding planets and the Fedration's core worlds plus a number of autonomus "sub-cores" centered around stars like Deneb and Antares that are effectively self governing but still considered part of the Federation. I like this idea because it combines the idea of a small core Federation with the 8000LY figure mentioned in "First Contact".

[SIR SIG]

Well after that suprising figure of 50.3 ly coming up as the radius for a circle's area of 8000 ly. I've been messing around with a few figures. For instance I'm working on tying Bajor to a real star since I feel to get an odd figure like 50.3 they must'v measured something.

So with a Federation 'defined' space of roughly 50 ly radius from Sol giving an 8000 ly area, where does that leave us?

Alot of explored space and colonies outside this area I presume but perhaps not to many member worlds.