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Thread: Globalize Resistance

  1. #1
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    Globalize Resistance

    Well, after the fiasco in Barcelona, I decided I'd have a look at this Globalize Resistance movement. They laid out their beliefs in a maifesto from Porto Alegra. (A manifesto...this shold immediately put the analyst on alert...)

    Let's go through the points one by one ( you can find them at http://www.resist.org.uk/reports/bac...toalegre2.html )

    1. An intro.

    2. "We are diverse..." Diversity as unity is a questionable ideal; it rarely happens. They talk about alternate solutions they are coming up with. None are voiced here. The kicker: they are fighting capitalism and patriarchy. Where have we heard that before?

    My analysis: you've got people operating on a socialist/communist ideology. I find it interesting this is the only solution that Europe's really been able to sling around since the 1848 revolutions. Save for fascism, but that's just another form of statism.

    3.Everything from sunspots to hair loss is caused by the capitalist system. Environmental degredation -- they have a point here, though I think it arguable how badly we have affected the planet. Wars -- most of the wars currently in action around the world have nothing to do with corporate sponsorship. (I'm surprised no one's try to buy ad sapce on tanks, actually...) Destruction of social solidarity -- was there ever any? Really?

    Analysis: capitalism bad.

    4. Opposition to war. Find me someone who really WANTS war. But it's a sentiment I agree with. I wish we could just talk things over, but sometimes reason doesn't work. As for the condemnation of all violence..I didn't hear too much out of these guys when the al-Qaida beheaded one of our soldiers. At least our prisoners are well-fed, have health care, and are allowed to practice their religion without impediment (gee, so much for the demonization of Islam...)

    Analysis: war bad. I agree. Islam good. When not in the hands of fanatics, yes.

    5. The war destabilizes the Middle East and harms poor, innocent Palestinians. Have you been there? No good guys. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians truly want peace. They just want victory.

    Analysis: Palestinians good and noble. Take a closer look at the Palestinians' record vis-a-vis the offers they've gotten. They just want Israel gone. Israel bad. In many ways, yes.

    6. Argentina has been screwed by capitalists. Not entirely. The IMF is a cpaitalist organ with an awful track record for aiding the developing world. But they took the loan. The other troubles were due to a half-assed system of government regulation of the alleged free-market. You can't do an economic system halfway or you get this kind of thing. Rejecting the criminalization of social movements: hear hear! Political speech is the most important form of speech.

    Analysis: capitalists bad. Hurt Argentines. But they took the loans. If I'm dumb enough to tkae a credit card with 23%+ interest, that's my bad; save applies here: caveat debtor.

    7. Enron: corruption exemplifying the captialist system. Actually, Enron broke the laws of the capitalist system, the first being: don't screw your investors.

    Analysis: see, Enron shows capitalism bad. Actuality, Enron was a Ponzi scheme that had the investor known about it, wouldn't have been so bad. Arrest and try the guys responsible; the invesor should class action suit the guys that crept off with their golden parachustes for compensation.

    8. Oh, that arrogant USA -- protecting their own interests...how dare they! They won't hamstring their economy with environmental rules based on junk science, give money to the Africans 'cause they demand it, and they won't get rid of guns 'cause they think it might be good to have a population that can stand up to the government, should the need arise.

    Analysis: 50 years of climate data, of which only 10 is anywhere near accurate, is a bit small on the global timeframe to make snap decisions about out impact on the planet. The race thing is just an attempt to extort money by tyring to play on feelings of guilt (which the Euros have in spades...after all, they were the main colonizing powers on that continent.) And besides, the Africans that sold their brothers already got paid (ok...cheap shot). As for the guns -- I reserve my RIGHT, as a US citizen and a free thinking being, to defend myself from those who would rob, kill, or opress me.

    9. Global government. Yeah...nothing like busting on capitalism throughout this document, then turning to the G8 for global government. The G8 is an economic outfit for the discussion of trade arrangements. Oh...and it's a GREAT idea to have a one-world monolithic government (with no guns, high taxes, and self-serving bureaucrats) running everything.

    Analysis: hints of utopian pipe dreams. Every utopian I've seen posited is a controlling, uniformed technocracy. No thanks...I'll take my chances with the corporations.

    10. Global recession and those poor laid-off workers. Take you skills, get together, and build your own company. Oh, nd maybe we wouldn't have the unemployment problems if we kept our population size in check.

    Analysis: you're out of work due to greedy capitalists. Unlike the 19th century or the early part of this one, more capital was squarely in a few people's hands. Now a great number of people hold stock in companies. So are we all the villain here? Maybe instead of looking for a daddy government to protect you, you should get off your asses and find a way to ue the system to your advantage.

    11. Social justice and solidarity. Militarism is passe. Let's talk it out. (I'm all for that...but when they don't want to talk..?) It's all because of discrimination and dominance that war exists. I think that's an oversimplification. Mankind is a hunter/scavenger -- biologically speaking. We are hardwired for the notion of self-interest and competition. Most of the countries that are unstable are due to a lack of democratic social history. Most have dicatators that have used political and religious ideologies to set themselves apart from the rest of the world (but I thought diversity was strength?). This is one reason why utopian ideals of peace rarely work.

    Trade unionism: all for it. But once again, there's a balance. In a capitalist system, there's only so far you can push your employer before they are no longer viable. At that point, you've cut your own throat. As for governments shutting them down. It's wrong.

    Analysis: capitalism bad. It oppresses people. Well, talk to the 8 year old whose family is able to feed themselves or a better place to live. Most of them welcome capitalism. There's a lot of fear of mechanization here too; the global movements owe a lot to the Luddites and Saboteurs of the 19th Century. They were afraid of machine then...apparently, we still are.

    As for the war thing: an example of when negotiation doesn't work: Iraq. Sanctions for 12 years have done no good. Now what?

    12. Neoliberalism causes trafficking and slavery of women and children. This is the biggest load of crap in this document. The majority of these people are fleeing TO neoliberal countries and are exploited by their own people, who rob them and enslave them. No 'capitalist' country I know of allows this sort of thing. When it is discovered, the people are freed and the miscreants arrested. How about the enslaved diamond miners in Angola working for those noble socialist liberators...oh wait, that's blacks enslaving blacks and that doesn't happen. Never mind.

    Analysis: this shows the virulence of this group to capitalism. They will essentially make any connection, no mater how false, to the 'casino economy' and any evil they see in the world.

    13. Countries' debts as illegitimate (wrong, they agreed to the stipulations in their loan), unjust (I'll back that wholeheartedly...usury, anyone?), and fraudulent (questionable.)

    Anaylsis: a bit heated and emotional, but some very good points here. I agree that the IMF should go ahead and forgive these loans. But these countries shouldn't just rush out and sign up for more...if they do, that's their own fault.

    14. The common assets. The culture thing -- cultures act just like their individual ements, humans. They compete for dominance. The most successful are the ones that adapt and include elements from other societies. As for the biodiversity thing...food free from genetic manipulation. Wouldn't that kind of adjustment to crops be encouraging biodiversity? Oh, wait...it's not NATURAL biodiversity.

    Analysis: Luddite-like fears of bioengineering. Question: what do you get when you put a gene splice from a firefly into the genetic structure of corn? Answer: corn.

    15. The WTO and the commodification of everything. This is Marx, pure and simple.

    Analysis: fear of a dehumanization of people.

    16. Final points: I agree with most of them, save the Tobin Tax crap. Just what I need, the government stealing more money from me so it can do nothing for me with it. As for the self-determination part -- you won't get that with an overarching world authority.

    What we have here is the same socialist humanism of the 19th Century. There's a few additions here and there, but they are running on a 100+ year old platform that is not entirely compatible with the modern ay issues they are trying to tackle. There are some huge assumptions about capitalism that are incorrect. There are some massive leaps of logic to connect points they are concerned with.

    My main problems with this group are their lack of real examination of the issues and the lack of real 'alternate social system' here that they are proposing -- merely the same ephemeral utopian pipedreams that enslaved the Soviet people for 70 years. We saw how successful that was; now we're being offered the same carrot they were.
    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

  2. #2
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    And just to show the rightness of their cause...how 'bout a little riot and scuffle with the Spanish police?
    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

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    Ah Qerlin, you got it all wrong... You see, it is the government's role to provide us with jobs, food, shelter, free education, a spouse, a car, a TV and Chinese food. Because all that are BASIC human rights (I'll have my Sesame Chicken medium spicy please).



    When I was in university studying commerce, I had no time for that communist-rallying BS; those who had to deal with endless math, statistics or accounting problems will know what I mean. Same thing, I imagine, goes for engineering or medecine students. But the human/political sciences students... they're another matter. When I took political science many of the teachers had no idea how the economy works. And they have PhDs!!!

    These people always bitch, but what are the solutions they propose? And when they have solutions to pitch, they're usually so simplistic they sound like they were devised by a 10-yr old. Now, sometimes they DO raise valid points, but their approach (and solutions) to the problems is so juvenile they cannot be taken seriously.
    "Oh better far to live and die
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    Than play a sanctimonious part
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  4. #4
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    Hey, now! I'm a liberal arts student! Of course, I also have a bunch of years experience as an intelligence anaylst, too.
    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

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    One of the things I DO agree with is their desire to prevent Corporations from being exempt from local laws, if said laws interfere with their ability to make money.

    Yes there may be a lot of wackos out there protesting, but Michael Moore is not a wacko and he does understand how the economy works and he is very vocal in the anti-Globalization movement.

    Not looking to argue, just pointing out that there are true problems with Globalizations and true benefits. We can't throw the baby out with the bath in either direction.

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    Your right Qerlin, read a little more on this movement and they sound way like the communists in Eastern Europe back in the Soviet Era. I don't need a gov't official telling ME how to live MY life. All this movement could bring is another Stalin like character and off we go wasting 70M ppl's lives for the "Socialist Dream". No thank you as far as I'm concerned.

    Dr.Evil: You are right, most political science teachers I know are either complete idiots or abject communists. As a political science major I've seen it all.


    Why is it that all these socialist groups keep on preaching the Marxist/Leninist jargon after the collapse of the Soviet Union( thus failure of communism)? Is it that they haven't attended classes on history or is it that they are too busy protesting?
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all."
    -Joan Robinson, economist

  7. #7
    Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos

    Why is it that all these socialist groups keep on preaching the Marxist/Leninist jargon after the collapse of the Soviet Union( thus failure of communism)? Is it that they haven't attended classes on history or is it that they are too busy protesting?
    Simple reason.

    True Socialism, where everybody is equal is an ideal. One that the Former Soviet Union didn't meet. Communism failed, but no society has gained true Socialism... ever.

    "Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others" Is the one sentence description of that failed system.

    The problem is us. As a species Mankind is unlikely to find a true and just socialist republic because of basic human characteristics as Greed, Jealousy and plain old laziness. Until we can get off our fat arses and work towards evolving mentally I simply cannot see it happening...

    Too many people after too much money, and unable to see a way forward. A very slight example are the various comments seen on these boards when discussing the economics of Trek. Every now and then one of our number posts that they cannot see a truely cash-less Federation.

    And they're right, because the TV shows are filmed here and now, money will always be a factor, no matter how much Jean-Luc proclaims otherwise...

    However I am getting off topic here. But that is the reason why the Anti-globalisation groups proclaim Socialism as the way of the future, because they havn't accepted that the great ideal is buggered up by the personality characteristics of the species supposed to live in this ideal.

    Nice idea... Hope they get a clue soon.
    DanG/Darth Gurden
    The Voice of Reason and Sith Lord

    “Putting the FUNK! back into Dysfunctional!”

    Coming soon. The USS Ganymede NCC-80107
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    If my knowledge of early Christianity is correct, early Christian communities were essentially communist - everything they had was pooled together and shared.

    The problem with that system is human nature is what it is. There will always be some people, heck many people, who see "if I do nothing I'll still get something" or at the very least "Why should I study for a decade to get my doctorate in medicine, go through the agony of a residency, to 'get' as much as the person who mops the operating room floor?"

    Should people do things just for the love of those things, the passion, to better themselves and humanity? Yeah, they should, but no large community has ever pulled it off. Look at the US Welfare system - it had multiple generations of people on it. Only recently has the law changed to give reason not to spend an entire lifetime on welfare.

    That's what I would think would happen in a true socialist society. The drive for excellence would diminish, the reason to strive would be lost. There'd be exceptions, people who work their tail off no matter what, but they wouldn't be enough in my opinion. Add production quotas? Now that starts to sound like the Soviet Union's worst aspects. And it gives you the problems of capitalism without the benefits - "do this or I'll shoot you" or "do this for money" - I'd prefer the money option!

    Is capitalism better? I believe it is, but we've got our own share of problems with that - it turns all people into pimps for themselves - you are only worth what you can give and can be discarded at a moment's notice. Certainly better for society as a whole and for many individuals, but a great way to be left behind as well. That's why despite my libertarian leanings, I believe things like education can at least level the playing field and give all an equal chance.

  9. #9
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    Wow...I expected to get slagged with this thread.
    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

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    resistance is futile. . .




    oh come on, you knew someone would say it. . .

  11. #11
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    As far as I know, communism in the Soviet Union was slightly altered by Lenin to suit Russia. The creation of an elite vanguard to continue the revolution and other more subtle changes. The institution of the anti-factionalist rule also deterred arguments-in effect destroying Plektanov's Mensheviks.

    During the days of the NEP (New Economic Policy) until 1928, the whole system basically worked-sort of. They had problems, but they were slowly getting the bugs out and then cae Stalin who "Stalinized" socialism. The slaughter of anyone deemed "enemy of the state" meant that he had full control of the party. This I think many revolutionary socialists forget.

    Posted by Dan Stack:
    Should people do things just for the love of those things, the passion, to better themselves and humanity? Yeah, they should, but no large community has ever pulled it off. Look at the US Welfare system - it had multiple generations of people on it. Only recently has the law changed to give reason not to spend an entire lifetime on welfare.
    Actually most Russians (Peasants) truly believed in the revolution, in the beginning that is. Everyone got land and could grow their foodstuffs. It wasn't until the collectivisation of agriculture by Stalin and the corruption under Breschnev that people became ticked off. The fact is that the people of Russia toiled and sweated under the Tsar's and were made to do so under the communists, all they had extra for a while was their own land and free education so they were happier with it.

    Posted by Dan Stack:
    Add production quotas?
    Ah yes the production quotas. Probably the nail in the coffin for any communist system. I remember all the stories my father has told me about them, some still make me cringe.

    Its true though the Soviet Union wasn't a complete Communist state ala Marx. Though neither were Cuba, China, North Korea or the numerous other would be socialists. Marx's socialism is a utopia and it just surprises me how so many people can go out there and advocate a system which killed off millions of people and ruined countless other millions.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all."
    -Joan Robinson, economist

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    Wooly Thinking for Wooly Heads...

    I can't believe I agree with Querlin either, but there you go - must be the aftereffects of Paddy's Day...

    The Anti-Globalisation movement is cut from the same cloth as the idealistic, intellectually elitist middle-class-pretending-to-sympathise-with-the-plight-of-the-working-masses neo-marxists who would happily hijack any parade and jump on any bandwagon back in my student days. It's impossible to argue with them, because the Marxist-Socialist ideal is like a fundamental religious tenet, and thus as open to refutation by logical argument. I'm not saying that there are not principled, intelligent people in the greater umbrella the movement encompasses, but for every one idea that they have (e.g. get rid of the global debt culture), they have two bad ones (e.g. global capitalisation creates wars or the USA is wrong to engage in warfare to protect itself against fanatical, ultra-militant neo-fascists).

    It's a classic example of what Edward de Bono describes as the difference between being smart and being a good thinker. One doesn't necessarily equal the other - smart people who are poor thinkers usually adopt a position and are clever enough to find enough plausible arguments to support it. Not sure what that makes me... .

    The elements of the anti-globalisation protest movement that really annoys me , however, are the violent ones. These people are classic anarchists, pure and simple. Don't these people know that it's 2002, not 1902? I suspect that the organisors of these events are less distressed to be associated with these elements than they like to make out (no such thing as bad press, and all that).

    Here's a thought to ponder (I think that it's still true) - no two countries in which MacDonalds has established a presence have ever gone to war with one another. This is one of the best examples of how capitalism prevents wars - if you are both part of the system, it's just too damn expensive! The EU is a classic example of this principle in action .
    Last edited by Cdr Scot II; 03-19-2002 at 10:14 AM.
    “Maintain the mystery, and don't try to think unthinkabilities...”
    Iain M Banks, 2003, on the Art of writing good SF.

  13. #13

    Re: Wooly Thinking for Wooly Heads...

    Originally posted by Cdr Scot II
    The Anti-Globalisation movement is cut from the same cloth as the idealistic, intellectually elitist middle-class-pretending-to-sympathise-with-the-plight-of-the-working-masses neo-marxists who would happily hijack any parade and jump on any bandwagon back in my student days.

    I object. Neither I nor my family are anything like the Anti-Globalisation movement... oh yes, and were not pretenting either...

    Here's a thought to ponder (I think that it's still true) - no two countries in which MacDonalds has established a presence have ever gone to war with one another. This is one of the best examples of how capitalism prevents wars - if you are both part of the system, it's just too damn expensive! The EU is a classic example of this principle in action .
    Support McDonalds, support World Peace. Im off to pledge my support with a Big Mac right now!!!

    All hail Ronald the Mighty clown of Peace.

    Of course does this mean that Osama Bin Laden was auditioning for the role of the HamBurgular?
    DanG/Darth Gurden
    The Voice of Reason and Sith Lord

    “Putting the FUNK! back into Dysfunctional!”

    Coming soon. The USS Ganymede NCC-80107
    "Ad astrae per scientia" (To the stars through knowledge)

  14. #14
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    Cmdr Scott II:
    Here's a thought to ponder (I think that it's still true) - no two countries in which MacDonalds has established a presence have ever gone to war with one another.
    A call for Peace! One Big Mac at a time!

    *scarfs down a Burger for Peace*

    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all."
    -Joan Robinson, economist

  15. #15
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    McDonald's website reports that there are McDonald's restuarants in 121 countries world wide.

    I am unable to find an accurate lisiting of said countries. But I am willing to bet at least two of them have traded blows in the last 5 years or so.

    I would really love to know, becuase if this is true. Then I must immediately re-evaluate my take on McDonald's.

    I still won't eat there, but I would hate them less if they somehow were a deterrent to war.

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