Streamlined Starfleet

[Michael Brinkhues]

Originally posted by Delta:
I would agree with Mad Cow on this one. While I fully believe Starfleet has the idustrial cababilities to keep making large numbers of varying starship classes (I forgot what Voyager episode it was, but it has a time travel trip back to the launch day of Voyager and it shows a shot of all shipyards around mars, there must have been at least a hundred), it comes down to a matter of efficiency. I do not know much about logistics, but it has to be a lot easier to make many ships of a select number of classes than it is to making a few ships of many different classes. Each class of ship must have it's own set of "assembly-line" tools, and the personnel to use them.

<sniped comment about SD use and Franky-Ships>

From SD (and the military) I do believe that a lot of components are standard packages that can be assembled almost anywhere. After assembling warships in pieces and putting them together somewhere else has been done in WWII (Type XXI and XXVI subs).

In my eyes things like Sensors, Phaser strips, MAM-cores and Warp nacelles are plug-and-use parts. If you don't/can't use all the power, install a speed govener (like in IRL they dropped the MTU engine of the Leo II from 1500 to 1200 HP until the A5 version needed more power. Or the Defiant that can not use all possible speed for any length of time).

Ship design is about aranging building blocks in a Warp-optimised hull and (primarily) about deciding on a ship's capabilities and possible future upgrades. That and all the simulations to perfect it is what takes the time.

For the same reason StarFleet can build the Frankensteins (the parts are compatible) and can quickly construct certain ship types by sacrificing elements like "easy upgrades" and "build in growth". (IRL example are the Typ 205/206 subs of the german navy. 205 was a "must have" quick build with quite a few flaws. 206 was a well thought through, long lived (almost 30 years) series with "build in" potential)

So there can be a lot of different ships and ship variants (more of the latter I believe) without much problems.

Michael

[Arithon]

One problem I have about player built ships, and this is something I saw my former work group do was design ships that were better then the 'canon' or made ships.. I mean Sovereign, Promethius are supposed to be state of the art.. inevitably some player will come by look it over and say ooh! with the things SD has I can make an even better ship.. which is fine, but.. well we had this one gaming group.. where we took over a Empok Nor, and started out as nothing, and within a year we made ourtselves our own empire, and by raiding battle sites for debris, and such we were able to build up under a year a note worthy battle fleet, and then we started produicing our own ships that were superior to just about anything Starfleet or anyone else at the time had to offer.. IOt got to the point the RP revolved asround one or two people who did nothing but want to build ships, when the game got well massively boring..

[qerlin]

A ruler across their hands at that point does wonders, Arithon. Either that or starting a new campaign. (I ground zero mine every couple of years.)

Woo hoo...! I believe this to be my 200th post.

[calguard66]

I believe that the older ships would be phased out as they came up for refit. New classes which would be produced:

Defiant; Heavy Escort/ Point Interceptor
Assigned to Starbases and other fixed facilities to provide mobile defense, patrol and local counterattack capability... also escorts convoys from one installation to another.

Intrepid; Heavy Frigate/ Light Explorer
Fills both roles if torpedo capacity is increased.

Nebula; Cruiser/ Survey
Far too useful with it's modular design. I see versions in Cruiser (weapons pod) and Survey (Sensor Pod) variations. Likely this design would fill the second-line role of the Excelsiors.

Galaxy; Heavy Explorer
Continuing as the Federation's primary long-range exploration platform.

Sovreign; Dreadnought
Though Starfleet claims not to have warships the Sovreign would likely act as the flagship of various fleets, being sent to hot spots to make an impression on potential troublemakers.

None of the other canon designs add anything that these can't do... They would probably exist in small numbers, but I believe that the above would be the "standard" designs.

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[Dan Stack]

If I'm in charge, I start churning out Intrepid-Class vessels. No larger than a Constitution-Class, small sized crew, great for exploration, and can take one heck of a beating.

(As an aside, I've read on the Flare SciFi forums page there's work going on for a fan-made set of Intrepid-class deckplans, by the same person who made the Enterprise-A plans back around 1990 or so. This makes Dan the narrator happy - though he's not much of a Voyager the show, fan, he's very much a fan of Voyager the ship. It's the perfect type of for a TNG-era game - not a hotel like the Galaxy, not a submarine like the Defiant. Not a century old design like the Miranda. Sadly, Dan has this big problem running a campaign on a ship without deckplans... )

[SIR SIG]

Originally posted by Dan Stack:
If I'm in charge, I start churning out Intrepid-Class vessels. No larger than a Constitution-Class, small sized crew, great for exploration, and can take one heck of a beating.

True but you still need some variety. Can An Intrepid haul Dueteurim? Or take on 1000's of injured?

I could go on and on and....

But yes as a stand alone ship the Intrepid is quite remarkable (only because Voyager has emphasized it)



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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[JALU3]

This isn't one of the easieast questions to answer . . . and a lot of the reviews here are justified . . . and more importantly well thought out. Now we're looking at a Starfleet wide review here, and that would look at aspects of starfleet we can't even imagine. However, what we as GMers are concerned about (since it directly implacts our games) is what vessles are being kept, what vessels are bieng made, and what varients will there be, if any. Then yourself why? Probably the most simple, yet important question one can pose.

So why would you keep such and such vessel? But before you go about asking that question you have to accertain what the starfleet vessel registry looked like after the Dominion War ended (which I mind you happened right after or at the beginning of the Second Borg Incersion). Some estimates have the vessel loss up new one thousand, others place it only in the 300's. But either way . . . what is left?

Look at the episodes . . . what vessles were GODS of war, and what vessels were lams to the slaugher? These are the two moist omporstant question when answering this question.

Truthfully I would see the Soveriegn, Nebula, Akira, Intrepid, Saber, Olympic, Niagra, and Nova classes surviving the Starfleet cuts. Not to mention all the Danube and Venture (Talon) class and Spaceshuttles that would undoubtably be built.

Of course, this doesn't include the nonStarfleet vessels.

OK, I'll explain my reasoning later on this. I have been up since 0215 PST reading and writing on this board . . . I'll see you later to day maybe. Night

[SIR SIG]

Ideally they'll want one class for each classification type. Thus maximizing there effienciency.

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[odoital]

Well, I guess we don't need any spoilers considering the first post of this topic...

Some of will have to depend on the new President of the Federation and how s/he stands on things I think. Also space is very big but people aren't. There will still be skirmishes I think... Intrigue with the Romulans, Cardassian cleanup & rescue efforts, Gamma Quadrant patrols, the unpredictable Klingons... There are many roles still left to fill in Starfleet.

Perhaps there will be modified ships with the same hull designs as before? I can imagine the Akira class with it's carrier deck (if you want to believe it was a carrier) chuck full of labs and exploratory shuttles. Steamrunner scouts, ferries & first contact specialists (esp. for the Gamma Quadrant).... Although I guess it would make some sense to streamline Starfleet, I think that would be sad, cause new ships are always so cool! And since there is less of a time constraint (no war), I think Starfleet has time to experiment with many designs... Resources aren't as scarce in the 24th century so they say.

Just keep the Hokulea somewhere in there is all I say.

[Tiberius_Verutum]

Actually JALU3, the second Borg incursion happens before the Dominion War, just prior to the admission of the Cardassian Union into the Dominion. In fact, ST Insurrection occurs during the middle of the Dominion War, probably right after the Dominion pullback from the Bajoran Sector.

In terms of which ships a post-War Star Fleet would continue to produce and/or field, I think the number one issue would be vintage, followed closely by function.

Star Fleet has traditionaly made use of more starship designs (simultaneously) than any of the other major powers. This is partly due to frequent production of newer designs, as well as widespread refit and retention of older ones. The problem with the older ships, especially those such as the Miranda and Excelsior classes, is that a refit, no matter how extensive, can update the design only so much. Frankly I was hard pressed to come up with a good reason for the extensive use of Excelsiors let alone Miranda's for my group. Suffice to say, these two, as well as many later classes from the Enterprise C generation are most certainly no longer in production (most likely have not been for some time), and are ready to be phased out. The current mainstay of the fleet, Enterprise D generation ships (Galaxy, Nebula, New Orleans, Cheyenne, Springfield, Centaur) are likely to continue in limited production to bring the fleet numbers back up to snuff as well as to replace PDF ships destroyed in the fighting.

The Future of Star Fleet, however, would likely rest with the newest generation of starships; Nova, Defiant, Intrepid, Saber, Norway, Steamrunner, Akira, and Sovereign classes (note the Prometheus is still a prototype and will likely be a bridge to yet another generation of starships, in the same way the Intrepids were for this one) These ships utilize the latest in Federation technology (structural, electronics, weapons,propulsion, sensor arrays, ect), making them far more capable pound-for-pound then previous designs. They are also a product of an era in which Star Fleet has come to realize that peer level competitors are not limited to the Klingons, and that the future of the Federation depends upon a Star Fleet as capable in defense as it is in exploration. This is reflected in a family of ships which can perform either task with equal ease. These ships, while only entering full production a year or so before the onset of war have likely overtaken production levels of previous designs for some time now.

One other area that Star Fleet would need to increased production would be amongst its small craft division. Shuttlecraft, always produced in a few standardized designs, could likely become more widespread with most ships in the fleet able to produce their own on a limited basis. The proven success of the Runabout series will likely guarantee not only future incarnations, but an increase in repretoire as well. Federation attack fighters, once considered a waste of resources by many senior Star Fleet officers, have proven themselves as a potent supplement to fleet actions as well as in planetary defense. While the debate over large scale carriers will rage on, Peregrine production will certainly continue. Likewise, the Raider class Patrol Ships of which both the Maquis and Federation have utilized with great success on the Cardassian front, will likely receive a field refit to bring them up to specs; at least until a suitable replacement is in production. This should be soon, as with the cessation of hostilities among the great powers, will likely come a new threat of piracy; especially near those systems which are on the fringes of Federation and Cardassian space.

[Owen E Oulton]

Gentlemen...

Since this is the Narrator's Ready Room, can we please angle this discussion back toward game play? All this makes for fascinating background, but how do you implement it in a campaign? How does it impact the PCs in your game?

Owen E Oulton, CoModerator

[JALU3]

You bring up many good points that should be read by all those who come here to this string . . . however the problem that I have with all the new classes are that they were built for war, and are thus products of war. Granted they are good classes, and their hulls shouldn't be overlooked (not at all), however is it not that the Federation stands for peace?

Unless we're switching to the strategy of "Walk quietly and carry a big stick" I think we can do a little better than what we have right now. Or at least modify some of these vessels for peace time application.

I'll grant you this however, you're right on the Pre Galaxy Generation of vessels (Ambassador Class, and that like), these vessels have served honorably, however their younger counterparts can far better handle the new technology . . . If anything . . . do like what is currently being done . . . phase them out over time as the number of newer class ships start to overtake the older vessels so that current capabilities are obtained, or better yet, surpassed.

Also, your point about the runabout, and smaller like craft is very good. I also see great potential in these vessels. Granted, some whould argue that by using this route we move closer to "Star Wars" strategies and tactics, the reasoning for doing so is quite ingeniues. These vessels cost less to produce, can be produced in more numbers, far quicker, and are far more expendable. Therefore, they're rather practical. Think of it like this . . . several (maybe 10) Danube or Venture class vessels maybe be able to cover as much area as one FLT size vessel (Maybe like the Niagra). But if lost one Niagra would be far more costly in terms of overall FLT capability and loss of life than one of these smaller vessels.

I would think to deploy these vessels in large numbers in sectors within the federation and on in boarder sectors where there is little threat. This way this frees up vessels that would otherwise be partoling those sectors. Granted, you'd still keep a number of Large vessels in or near these sectors in case of emergeny, however this plan overall increases the Starfleets potential in the Rim sectors and in unexplored regions that "cry" to be explored and discovered.

Honestly the move towards smaller vessels such as the Intrepid, Streamrunner, and Saber is practical due to reasons stated above with the runabout vessles. However, their is nothing like a Soveriegn to strike fear into the heart of a foe or a Nebula to carry out those LONG Deep Space Exploration Cruises. So where would you find the balance on that?

Truthfully I like the Idea of the Rapid Responce Fleets. These fleets could be the pinicle of the Militant side to of Starfleet, freeing more Fleets for more peaceful ventures of exploration, colonization, and what not. For with in those freed up fleets they wouldn't have to focus on predominantly offensive vessel variants, save one or two attachments from these Rapid Response Fleets just in case some one decides on getting pushy.

The way I see it, the Akira Class and Nebula Class will be the mainstay of the fleet for years to come, just as the Excelsior was for a long time now ( for we have seen more Excelsiors than Ambassadors or any other class for that matter (save the Mirandas who are the "red shirts" of Star Trek up to this point)). For these classes I see as the most flexible and most balanced to do multiple task for long periods of time without direct support from Starbases. However, I will grant due to the nature of the Akira, it is more offensively inclind.

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"See Everything; overlook a great deal; correct a little." -Pope John XXIII

[toadkiller]

Originally posted by Owen E Oulton:
(Ladies and) Gentlemen...

Since this is the Narrator's Ready Room, can we please angle this discussion back toward game play? All this makes for fascinating background, but how do you implement it in a campaign? How does it impact the PCs in your game?

Owen E Oulton, CoModerator

I'll try.

ANother factor (at least in my game) pressing for a streamlined star fleet are the SF personnel themselves. My PC's aren't going to take kindly to being handed a Miranda given their canon fodder status. While the officers and crew are in service and must therefore do as ordered - it seems that SF doesn't have obligated service contracts. We've seen people resign (or threaten to) with no mention of legal matters.

So - the fleet may be pressed to move towards higher tech ships just to keep sentients in service.



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TK

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

Regarding older classes of vessels being phased out, in my own campaign the Oberths are either being decommissioned or sold to private interests such as research firms.

The Miranda's are slowly taking over for the interior scientific missions the Oberths used to undertake as they can no longer effective serve as an independant vessel on the frontier. They are out-classed by newer vessels that now serve on the borders of the various Powers.

The Excelsior-class will remain in service for sometime yet but is no longer being produced and will eventually be relegated to duties that will remove it from the frontier and any major border region.

I cannot see massive use of Danubes due to their lack of true versatility to deal with situations that may arise and their inability to deliver Starfleet officers where they need to be in an expedient manner.

However, as the war draws to a close in my live campaigns there will be a backlash that the PCs may find themselves involved in as the Fleet is restructured.

There will be a number of power plays between the old-school explorers and the new-school militants each vying to shape the changes. Civilians and other interests will be lobbying, the FNS will be reporting on the situation and writing editorials while attempting to get comments from various SF personnel.

Depending on what my PCs do they may find themselves right smack in the middle of all the politics or just on the fringes of it.

Something to consider as a twist during this streamlining. Perhaps one of the PC's families has been in Starfleet since the late 2200's and has had a family member from each generation serve on one particular ship for the last hundred years with the PC expected to serve on that ship at some point during his career to carry on the tradition.

The PCs for whatever reason are available for special duty and they get called up to bring in the starship above...to transport her to her final destination where she will be decommissioned and cut up for scrap.

Certainly, this will require a fair amount of set-up to establish the story prior to the episode but imagine the effect as the PC is walking through the halls, recalling various tales from his childhood only to pass a battle-hardened militant joking around with a buddy about what a piece of garbage this class is and its a good thing that someone somewhere saw the sense to throw this one out so that no one else died due to being assigned to an obselete garbage scow...mocking the ship's heritage and glorious years of service...

This could become a rather powerful story especially if the PCs are `soft' militants themselves and they have to deal with `hard' militants that care nothing for heritage, history, or the pre-war glory days, only desiring to get rid of what they consider weak or out-dated equipment for the newer, more heavily-armed starships so that Starfleet can cow their enemies with an overwhelming threat of force.

Regards,
CKV.

[Tiberius_Verutum]

First my apologize to both Owen and JALU3, the former for getting off the topic of the board, the later for initially quibiling over a minor point.

What I was trying to get at was, at least as in my campaign, Star Fleet has made a concious decision post-Dominion War that the vast majority of its ships are either outdated or not well suited to the strategic reality that has presented itself.

In the former case, the Federation has been utilizing ship designs that are as old (sometimes older) than the Captains commanding them. Though the problem is far more prevalent in the Reserves and Planetary Defense Forces, it has become ever more serious, to the point where there is a considerable burden on Star Fleet's ability to defend the Federation and promote its interests(exploration, ect) In my campaign, a significant background element is the divestiture by Star Fleet of its oldest starships, and the shifting of its remaing Third Generation ships to Reserves/mothball or the PDFs. Surviving Miranda's are the first to go. (To explain their continued use, I had set up the Miranda's as either PDF ships, fleet auxillaries principally crewed with reservists and not directly participating in the main engagments, or as retooled auxillary carriers, since it was unlikely that Star Fleet had enough Akira's or other attack fighter bearing ships by the time the war broke out.) The removal of these ships from the ranks has accelerated their replacement with newer starship classes, and leads to a far 'younger', more all around capable fleet. Though it is not as contentious an issue as it would be in some other campaigns ( as our current is not aboard any particular starship ) it is a constant background element in many of the plots I am devising.