Streamlined Starfleet

[Mad Cow]

Imagine, for a moment, that you are the Chief of Starfleet in a post Dominion-war universe. You've got a bucket load of starships (in various states of repair), more starship designs than you can poke a stick at and limited production facilities.

Now the question: Which designs would you continue to produce and which would you shelve?

Would you continue producing light frigates, heavy frigates and fast frigates, or would you just have the one 'generic' frigate? And the same for cruisers, explorers and escorts?

While I understand that everyone likes designing their own ships, and Spacedock is a wonderful tool to do this, surely Starfleet are going to have to put their foot down somewhere. The practical problems of commonality of spare parts and personnel training would surely demand some sort of standardisation. ("Hey, sorry, Captain, I'm not rated on that Impulse engine. My last posting was on the USS Improbable.")

Please note that this is not a request for starship designs. Please only list classes that have been tried and tested through the Dominion war.

If this needs to go under the Spacedock section, please feel free to move and/or berate.



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"You couldn't even SPELL Prime Directive!"
"Not true. It's spelt P-H-A-S-E-R."

[Arithon]

Mad Cow, all I have to say is if you don't want to use the new ships then don't. People are just expressing and designing their own ships showing off their creativity.. While some of the ideas are good, some would not fit with me and were I running as game I'd pick and choose carefully..

[qerlin]

I think this was a hypothetical, not a slam at the guys making their own ships.

Personally, in our campaign we've seen just that, cow -- a downsizing of the kinds of ships out there due mostly to attrition inthe various conflicts and the change in tech. There's been a major technology watershed around 2370, so a lot of the old tried and true designs would get phased out.

We've got the Sovereigns as the big boy on the block, mostly flagships for the various fleets. The Galaxy and Nebula as the main deep space explorers and as the next heavy hitters behind the Sovereigns. All of these designs are supposed to have century long lives, so they're still good for a while.

The Ambassadors are being phased out, the Excelsiors are now being mothballed as trainers or sold as surplus to Federation planetary defense forces. The Miranda is gone. The New Orleans, Cheyennes, and their generation are still in service, but will fall out as they are damaged, destroyed, or otherwise not needed.

The main line cruiser is the Akira, for us. It's replacing pretty much every heavy ship -- Excelsior, Ambassador, etc. The next is the Steamrunner -- used for RRT missions, interdiction, border patrol, and escort duty on the heavier flagships. The Intrepids are knocking the Norways out of the next level down, light explorer. Sabers and Rigel classes are in cometition to see which class will survive the next budget pass. The Nova is the light scout, initial exploration ship, taking the spot from the Oberth. And there's a plehtora of civilian and merchant marine ships, but most use the Denevas.

I pretty much ignore the Prometheus as a one off. Tyhe idea seems unweildy to me. The Defiants are still around, mostly prepositioned and mothballed until needed by their respective fleets.

[SIR SIG]

I'm thinking you may be mothballing a little to quickly!

Sure the Excelsior is old, but you wouldn't just drop them like that. When they came up for overhalls they could progressively be phased out.

Other ships tend to have 50yr+ lifespans and so half the ships if not 3/4 of those out there would still be good for 20+yrs.

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[Eric R.]

I have to disagree with the Idesa of limited production facilities, while Starfleet will no doubt return to the standard "Government own" Yards and docks. That emense Idustrial base that built the ships for the war was not little and I would say many top of the line ships where left on "the stocks" when the war ended. So the question is first do we finish those ships being built at wars end and if so do we replace the older ones still inservice. Chance are a good fleet wide inspection and shake down according to Peacetime standards is going to reduce the fleet quickly.

It might not just be practical to bring all those Miranda/avengers and Excelsior/ Enterprise B class ships back up to pre war standards; assuming they have been through a lot of stress during the war. So I would say alot of ships will be sent to the breakers by failing inspection (This could make for a good episode where the Players have to patch the old ship up to save it during the review.)

Plus too Starfleet would have the chance to modernise (by pre war standards) the various System Defense fleets with a host of ships built in the last 50 years or so. Maybe even to the point of giving them classes like the Saber, Akira and Defiant which due to their more military natures would have been hard to justify keeping to a cost and size cutting assembly and council.

Maybe Starfleet would look at how it mothballs ships and build large containers to store ships in. Where instead of previously where they had floated in giant graveyards exposed to anything they could be safely guarded from the elements of space.

[Mad Cow]

Arithon, I'm certainly not slamming anybody for expressing their creativity in designing ships. Forums like this and the large number of designs posted here are a great way to exchange ideas and get the creative juices flowing. I was just asking which of the designs available players would continue producing if they had to go with a Star Fleet limited (by Council or other Executive order) to about 8-10 designs all up.

Qerlin, I'm thinking roughly along the same lines as you. I'm a bit undecided between the Nebula and the Galaxy for the heavy explorer type. The Galaxy is probably a bit more capable but the Nebula is probably a bit easier to produce. Again, the ideal would be to produce both but if the choice is only one of the two ...?

I think Sovereign's should be designated Flagships or battleships. They're far to useful to have doing simple exploration work.

I agree with your other choices: Akiras, Steamrunners, Intrepids, Rigels and Sabers would definitely be sliding down my slipways. I think I would continue to produce Defiants but that would of course depend on the social/political climate in your post-Dominion War universe.

As for refits, I think the big question is where to draw the line. There are only so many upgrades one spaceframe can handle. In 2375 the newest Excelsior is just turning 40 years old. It would have had at least 4, maybe 5 major refits for items such as shields, engines and computer systems. I think under the new regime any vessel over a certain age coming in for a major refit would be withdrawn from service. Possible destinations include reserve fleets, training depots, mothballs or friendly non-member worlds. Such ships could operate for the term of their natural life with fully functioning but (now) second line equipment.

[Mad Cow]

Sorry, EricR, it looks like we were both composing our posts at the same time. I didn't see yours when I sent mine or this part would have been part of the last one.

For starship construction, I haven't found (mainly for lack of trying) a reference that details how long it takes to make a starship. It would seem to me that it is not unreasonable for it to take nearly 24 months to build a Sovereign, and 12 months for something say size 4. How long prior to the Dominion war did Star Fleet begin to increase starship production and start laying down new hulls?

Obviously a decision would need to be made on hulls currently on the slipway. Most, if not all, ships under construction would be completed and commissioned, but after that only "Streamlined Starfleet" vessels would be built.

My reference to limited production facilities comes from that "fantastic" sourcebook, Planets of the UFP" which states that three of the four major construction locations are right here in our very own Solar system. Mind you, this is the same sourcebook that puts a major mothball junkyard containing 5,000 starships, Qualor II, about 1.3 light years from the Romulan Neutral Zone and then has the gall to sound surprised when some RR&R posterboy comes in and steals components.

Where was I ... Oh, I think I finished!

Anybody else?

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"You couldn't even SPELL Prime Directive!"
"Not true. It's spelt P-H-A-S-E-R."

[Arithon]

Originally posted by Mad Cow:
Arithon, I'm certainly not slamming anybody for expressing their creativity in designing ships. Forums like this and the large number of designs posted here are a great way to exchange ideas and get the creative juices flowing. I was just asking which of the designs available players would continue producing if they had to go with a Star Fleet limited (by Council or other Executive order) to about 8-10 designs all up.

Sorry Mad cow, and Everyone else who read this thread. I misunderstood what you were meaning..


There is something else to consider in starfleet.. remember there was a lot of damage done and massive rebuilding to be had after the dominion war.. it's possible many of these designs are being pressed into transports of not so much materials but qualified Personell. considering the size of the Federation, Cardassian and so forth, that's a lot of people.. add to it the opemning of the Gamma Quadrant for explaoration

[qerlin]

That was pretty much my point. With the war, there would have been a buttload of damaged ships; there seemed to be a lot of the really old Excelsiors and Mirandas, etc. I don't think it would be worth doing anything with them when they would have been producing the newer, more up-to-date ships like the Defiants, Akiras, etc...

Since the ships jump their size considerably between the respective size ratings, figure the time it takes to build these things is pretty radically different. Rule of thumb I use for our campaign -- each size rating takes about 4-5 months, with size 8 & higher being about 6 months/per size (this is to show the massive size jump between size 7's like the excelsior and the mother-huge ships like Galaxy and Sovereign.

Figure it's more time & work economical to pump out a bunch of Intrepid and Steamrunners with the occasional test variants that it is to keep building older designs.

[Kronok]

Originally posted by Mad Cow:

Which designs would you continue to produce and which would you shelve?

I guess I throw out a challenge to all you "Super-Trek-Info" Type people.

List all the known canon ships with their respective "birth" dates (year they were first made)? Then, we could vote on which ones to keep and which ones to mothball.

I know I saw a post that had a ton listed, but without the dates.

Good Luck,

Kronok

[toadkiller]

Got to this thread late -- ditto to most above.

My game's CINC SF announced a streamlining policy - keeping production of: Sov, Galaxy, Nebula, Intrepid, Akira, Terrell (a smallish destroyer I've made up), Defiant (only a handful more), Nova, and various support ships. Excel. and Miranda's will be scrapped upon next visit to spacedock.

Just my $.02


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TK

[Eric R.]

The real building spree in starfleet started in 2368 or 9 or soon after the first Borg invasion/raid Wolf 359. While I agree under normal peacetime circumstances 24 months for a Sov. sounds about right Historical precedant has suggested that in wartime about 1/3 to 1/2 half of that time can be reduced. (For some reason I just can't see Utopia Plentia working 24/7 365 so there is alot of time that was utilized to speed construction up with normal things like triple shifts, eat your lunch on the line etc. (espicially after Scotty took over "Utopia" in the wars third month (thats a bit of my world)) I would say that by wars end a "military version" Saber or Defiant was being built every 12 to 15 days and maybe an Intripid every 45 to 60 days. So that was in the Four Starfleet owned yards then add in the civilian yards converted over to wartime production, an event I figured that had already started very limitedly by 2372. Most of the sources mentioned above factored in the TNG era and feel, while most of what I write has a DS9 feel.

Really this Question needs the DWS to answer fully because we need to come up with a size of Starfleet figure, a Normal Attrition number and Size at end war figure.

[This message has been edited by Eric R. (edited 02-12-2001).]

[SIR SIG]

While generally excepting all of the above, I wouldn't limit my self to 8-10 designs or drop everything over a set age.

Like Eric (I believe) said, a fleetwide inspection would be good, flat out fails/battle damaged could be trashed on the spot for parts. Ships that barely made it could be off loaded to friendly govs/members for a small price and/or upgrade. Sound ships that are 'C' grade could use an upgrade and they'll be right, send all to a surplus yard(s) to awit refitting. Everything else would be priorty repairs and then sent back out.

AS to design numbers, I'd try to keep 2 designs for each general classification. ie 2 Explorers, 2 Cruisers hvy/lght, same with frigates, 2 science etc..

A quick list would give you:SD classification

Explorers: EX Galaxy
-----------EXH Sovereign
-----------EXL Intrepid
Cruisers: CA Zodiac
----------CEX Nebula
----------CF Istanbul
----------CL Saber
----------CH Akira
----------CS (When they build it)
Frigates: FR New Orleans
----------FF Norway
----------FH Steamrunner
----------FL Springfield
Escorts: ES (When they build one)
---------EH Defiant
---------EL Merced
Scouts: SS Talon
--------SH Rigel
Specialized: MD Olympic
------------ SRL Nova
------------ RU Danube
------------ WS Various shuttlecraft
------------ IS Various shuttlepods
------------ SV Oberth
------------ TT Deneva

Well this is obviously using canon only and new ships favored over old. Off course with the non-canon ships from SD you could add and refine this list with a lot new designs.

For instance the Oberth would go if there was a suitable replacement. You may say the Nova but by SD, it's a different classification. Picky perhaps but SF can 1 design for each specialization.

All up including a few other classifications gets about 30 design types. ie 1 ship for every classification.

As well in the mean time you could perhaps put the Prometheus in as a CS.

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[Mad Cow]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts so far. It's exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for.

My special thanks to Michael from Germany and his reference to Type XXI U-boats produced during the Second World War. It was my reading on this precise class of boat that promoted this thread.

In 1943 in became apparent to the Germans that their workhorse U-boat, the type VIIC, wasn't upto it anymore. The Type VII had been introduced in 1936, and was itself based on the UB-III design of 1915. The decision was reached to replace it with the Type XXI which by all accounts was nearly a generation ahead in technology (for anybody).

The problem was that brand new type XXI were being laid down next to brand new type VIIC boats - the very vessel they were designed to replace! And worse, experienced building crews were being used on the VII's and "diluted" (ie slave, inexperienced) labour was used on the XXI's

Now, obviously the situation is a whole lot different with what we are talking about, but it just struck me as odd that in the Star Trek universe there are a number of examples of two vessels of the same class with the same tasks being produced simultaneously when one has clearly been designed to succeed the other.

Any other thoughts?


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"You couldn't even SPELL Prime Directive!"
"Not true. It's spelt P-H-A-S-E-R."

[Delta]

I would agree with Mad Cow on this one. While I fully believe Starfleet has the idustrial cababilities to keep making large numbers of varying starship classes (I forgot what Voyager episode it was, but it has a time travel trip back to the launch day of Voyager and it shows a shot of all shipyards around mars, there must have been at least a hundred), it comes down to a matter of efficiency. I do not know much about logistics, but it has to be a lot easier to make many ships of a select number of classes than it is to making a few ships of many different classes. Each class of ship must have it's own set of "assembly-line" tools, and the personnel to use them.

You must also note the fact that many of Starfleets current designs/ship classes from the Dominion War period were only ment to be temporary/one production lines worth ships. There is at least five starship classes in the Starfleet SRM that are composites of different, spare starship components made during the Dominion war period. Some of those designs are pretty cool looking too.

The point is: it is always cool for your crew to have a new ship to play with. It gives a sense of uniqueness to the campaign that may or may not be there with out it. That is how I picture all of these fan designed ships. And that is fine. Steve didn't make Spacedock in order for it to collect dust in our hardrives or shelves. The most realistic designs that I think Starfleet would use from the multitude of player designs, are the smaller special mission profile ship designs. My favorite, that actually pretates Spacedock, is the Eclipse class ship. That is getting a bit off topic though...