BRAGA accuses rabid fans, calls them "Continuity Pornographers"

[Balok]

I don't think Berman or Braga are the anti-Christ, by any means. I just don't think they're very talented. Just my opinion, that's all.

Whether or not a continuity error bothers me has much to do with how big an error it is. Meeting the Ferengi early didn't bother me that much, it's no more than a nit. The way they've mishandled the Vulcans *does* bother me, because it flies in the face of almost everything that was established about them in TOS, and much of what was established about them in TNG.

There, the Vulcans suppressed their emotions fairly brutally. And they were fair and honorable beings (except when there were problems). The Vulcans of "Enterprise" are wildly emotional (for Vulcans), petty, and mean-spirited. They could be a different race, in my view.

As for Enterprise in general ... while I had a hard time finding an episode I deeply disliked, I also have a hard time finding one I deeply enjoyed. It's just middle of the road quality at best, as far as I'm concerned. I voice those concerns because I'd like to see it get better.

As always, YMMV.

[erhershman]

Just one question, I'm unaccustomed to some of these Internet BBS abbreviatons. Forgive me if I'm sounding stupid, but... what the heck does "YMMV" stand for?

[Perrryyy]

Originally posted by erhershman
Just one question, I'm unaccustomed to some of these Internet BBS abbreviatons. Forgive me if I'm sounding stupid, but... what the heck does "YMMV" stand for?

Your Mileage May Vary

Your opinion may differ, etc.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by erhershman
WARNING... LONG RANT... MAY CAUSE EYESTRAIN.


First of all, Braga's point is about 1 billion percent accurate. The continuity-hugging fans are getting a bit barbaric towards Enterprise, and although his language is a bit drastic, I agree with him totally.

People who have done nothing but criticize Enterprise since it came on don't seem to realize that B&B are NOT responsible for every single thing that happens on the show.

If the acting is bad, it means that Bakula or Blalock or whoever was having a bad day.

If the writing is bad, it's usually the fault of the writer of that episode.

If the special effects are cheesy, blame the Production department, not the producers.

The list goes on...

The continuity diehards also don't seem to realize that B&B are under a lot more pressure than we seem to think: first of all, they are under the pressure from the network. Paramount couldn't give a hoot about satisfying actual Star Trek fans, and is more concerned with getting as many viewers as possible, Trekkies or not. This usually means puttings as much explicit sex, nudity, and violence on the show as possible without having to increase the TV rating to TV14. Get used to this, fans, it's not going to change while televison is a form of marketing.

Second, they are under pressure from idiotic reviewers and ratings people like the TV critic from the Seattle Times, who is a true critic in the sense of the word, in that she has never said anything nice about anything Star Trek.

Finally, they are of course under pressure from us, the fans, who are expecting them to create an excellent show in its own right, as well as continue the legacy of Star Trek we've all come to know and love.

So give B&B a break. And next time you feel like Enterprise bashing, try this when you sit down to watch the show:

Turn on the TV... Sing along with the theme song, even if you hate it... make fun of the commercials... laugh at your best friend who goes nuts over Jolene Blalock's figure... do bad imitations of the captain's dog... Make fun of Mayweather's dialogue because it's so badly written... pretend to help the crew phaser down those aliens...

And above all, sit back, relax, and enjoy what I consider to be the best Trek show since TNG. I am a huge fan of Enterprise, and I would watch it even if I was the only person in the world who did. [That's how I feel sometimes anyway... ]

1) If the acting is bad....
May be mistaken but don't the producers have a say who is to star in their shows?

2) The Writer's fault...
Again, don't the producers have a choice in who writes the episodes?

3)Special Effects...
Ahh heck. See above.

Common denominator of why the show is bad....Hmmm.

4)I realize that. But Enterprise so obviously caters to the lowest common denominator. Other shows, SG-1 comes to mind, have skimpy costumes but their not rubbing KY jelly all over each other. It seems some networks can keep a certain level of decorum with shows...Hmm what does that say about Para. anyway?

5) The Reviewers...
Ok, I totally agree here.

6)The fans...
Funny they they did good by the fans until B&B and Enterprise got spewed forth.

7)Sit back and relaxx..
I already do that. Making fun of Enterprise seems to almost be a hobby, probably guessed that already.


Rant over.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Fesarius
The way they've mishandled the Vulcans *does* bother me, because it flies in the face of almost everything that was established about them in TOS, and much of what was established about them in TNG.

There, the Vulcans suppressed their emotions fairly brutally. And they were fair and honorable beings (except when there were problems). The Vulcans of "Enterprise" are wildly emotional (for Vulcans), petty, and mean-spirited. They could be a different race, in my view.

But things and people change over the course of 100+ years. I mean, look at how attitudes and behaviors have changed in our history over the course of a century or two...

Just a thought...

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Phantom
Other shows, SG-1 comes to mind, have skimpy costumes but their not rubbing KY jelly all over each other. It seems some networks can keep a certain level of decorum with shows...Hmm what does that say about Para. anyway?

I take you've only seen the edited-for-network-TV version of SG1? I saw more nudity and just as many "adult situations" in the unedited, made for Showtime first season than I have seen in all the episodes of Enterpise I've watched...

6)The fans...
Funny they they did good by the fans until B&B and Enterprise got spewed forth.

I am I the only one that remembers when TNG debuted back in '87 how people were saying things like "It's just not Star Trek", "The ship is too ugly", "The acting sucks," "The stories are too hokey" and almost word-for-word the same complaints we've been hearing about Enterprise since it premiered?

[Phantom]

But from TOS to DS9 it was pretty much nailed down that the Vulcan behaviour hadn't changed much since the time of Surak. There wasn't much difference between "the image" of Surak and Spock in that TOS episode. There wasn't much difference between how Tuvok and Spock-about 100 years separating them.

To my knowledge the Vulcans didn't start to get to be bigotted, mean spirited, rascist, condescending jerks until B&B took over, as evidenced by the Vulcan Captain in "Take me out to the Holodeck."

Oh well. As I have said before there's always SG-1 and Andromeda.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Doug Burke


I take you've only seen the edited-for-network-TV version of SG1? I saw more nudity and just as many "adult situations" in the unedited, made for Showtime first season than I have seen in all the episodes of Enterpise I've watched...



I am I the only one that remembers when TNG debuted back in '87 how people were saying things like "It's just not Star Trek", "The ship is too ugly", "The acting sucks," "The stories are too hokey" and almost word-for-word the same complaints we've been hearing about Enterprise since it premiered?

1) Can't say too much on that. After all I live in an area that has the Soprono's on at prime time on cable and uncut. IIRC some networks have had the shows that appear on thier stations re worked to bring up ratings. Are the "new" scenes in the VHS or DVD eps? I would like to see them.

2)I never said any of those things. As I remember my reaction was something like "Great another Star Trek, nice ship, interesting an android..."

[C5]

Okay, I keep hearing these complaints about hot babes in tight suit and gel rubbing for Voyager and Enterprise... however, I think there was one of the Star Trek series where every female crew member of the ship was dressed in some sort of microskirt uniform, where the captain of the ship (or his twin) tried to rape one of them in one of the early episodes, and that every other female alien was usually dressed just enough not to be naked...

Now I wasn't here when this series aired first (in fact, I only watched it last year), but I wonder if this couldn't have been said to be offensive, or designed to attract more people, back then ?

If this isn't rumour, I think Star Trek was not very liked when it first aired. Only a small (but hyperactive) bunch of fans formed, while the rest of the audience turned away in contempt (at least that's what I heard). Thanks to these early fans, Star Trek has grown to become the current franchise and spawn the three other series which all have wonderful episodes (check the "Best Voyager episode" thread if you have doubt about the latter series ). Maybe the people who're now yelling at Enterprise or think it is bad are now on the other side of the fence this time ?

I guess I wasn't ranting (much ) here. Anyway I didn't intend to be offensive to anyone, so apologies in advance if someone felt so

[erhershman]

Originally posted by Phantom
But from TOS to DS9 it was pretty much nailed down that the Vulcan behaviour hadn't changed much since the time of Surak. There wasn't much difference between "the image" of Surak and Spock in that TOS episode. There wasn't much difference between how Tuvok and Spock-about 100 years separating them.

To my knowledge the Vulcans didn't start to get to be bigotted, mean spirited, rascist, condescending jerks until B&B took over, as evidenced by the Vulcan Captain in "Take me out to the Holodeck."

I think the main reason B&B made the Vulcans the way they are on Enterprise, I think it was probably to get reviewers from screaming about T'pol, "It doesn't matter whether she walks around in a skintight catsuit! She's just another Spock!"

And as for the guy in Take Me Out to etc. on DS9, there are bound to be exceptions to the norm, even in an enlightened culture like the Vulcans. After all, if you didn't have people who thought they were better than everybody else, how would there be a Vulcan Isolationist Movement? Their basic philosophy is that everyone else is inferior to Vulcans, so Vulcans should have no contact with them.

[Dan Stack]

Why I like Vulcans on "Enterprise"

http://forum.trek-rpg.net/showthread...1825#post51825

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Phantom
To my knowledge the Vulcans didn't start to get to be bigotted, mean spirited, rascist, condescending jerks until B&B took over, as evidenced by the Vulcan Captain in "Take me out to the Holodeck."

Really? How about some TOS quotes?

Spock- "A dazzling display of logic."
Kirk- "Didn't think I had it in me, did you Spock?"
Spock- "No sir."

Spock (to McCoy)- "It would be most interesting to impress your memory engrams on a computer, Doctor. The resulting torrential flood of illogic would be most entertaining."

Spock- "The fact that my internal arrangement differs from yours, Doctor, pleases me no end."

Kirk- "At times, you seem almost human."
Spock- "I hardly believe that insults are within your prerogative as my commanding officer."

And that's just the tip of the iceberg...

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Phantom
2)I never said any of those things.

I never claimed you had. I was merely pointing out the similarity of the complaints fans in general are making now to those made by the same group 15 years ago. The resurfacing of pretty much the same complaints rather contradicts the idea that Star Trek "Did good by the fans" until Enterprise, don't you think?

In fact, I have heard similar complaints about all four new series when they premiered. With some (TNG, DS9), it eventually died down and went away. For others (Voy), it continues to this day.

{Edit:}The only real complaint about Enterprise I've found I can agree with is the didain for the idea that "Vulcans have forgotten the old ways" of Mind Melds and such as mentioned in one episode.

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

Posted by Doug Burke:

Kirk- "At times, you seem almost human."
Spock- "I hardly believe that insults are within your prerogative as my commanding officer."

Isn't Spock half-Human and Half-Vulcan? Well then he wouldn't act Vulcanish all the time.

IMO, if I were a Vulcan and someone called me a human, I'd take it as an insult. Hell making reference to someone by calling him the name of another species would be taken as an insult if the specie isn't chosen properly. How would Kirk have liked to be called as brutal as a Klingon?

Since Vulcans subscribe to the Teachings of Surak and therefore Logic they can take almost any position. One could say that Braga is just taking advantage of this. The Vulcans are superior, they know it, the humans pretend their not, why not make it evident to them?

I agree with Dan Stack's interpretation of the ENT Vulcans. I don't like the show, but I've stopped pulling my hair out on how it isn't trek.

All I do know is sit back, watch it and make fun of it. I know enjoy it in a different way.

[Calcoran]

Doug: Granted, Spock <I>did</I> bash the other humans of the crew on the head with this alleged superiority of logic and of Vulans' POV. But you have to admitt that the very tone of the quotes you gave us is quite different from what we often hear in Enterprise. Somehow, I can't but get the feeling that Spock is either: 1- Much better at humor than we give him credit for, or 2- Stating something that seems so obvious to him that he means no real harm in saying it. In Enterprise, most Vulcans sound <I>mean</I>. They do not only consider themselves superior, they make it quite obvious that they despise other cultures (as if they had some doubts about their superiority). <I>That</I>'s quite different (well, in my book at least).
In a way, why not? For a parallel, it reminds me of the way we've always seen Dwarves and Elves. There are most Elves and Dwarves (WFRP ones for instances), and there is Legolas and Gimli. There's Enterprise's Vulcans and Humans, and there is Spock and Kirk/Bones.
Well, I just hope we see the Archer/T'Pol relationship develop along those lines ... I don't know, don't you think it's been a bit shallow up until now? I for one would consider some (attempt at) friendship as seen in TOS quite refreshing in the middle of all this "Vulcan meanness" .

... Hey that was almost on topic, I'm getting better!