BRAGA accuses rabid fans, calls them "Continuity Pornographers"

[Capt.Hunter]

I happen to like my Sci-Fi in a format that at least tries to remember what it has done in previous stories. Just because McCoy said something about Vulcan being conquered isn't that high on my list of priorities - after all, your average eight-year old kid in Britain nowadays thinks Winston Churchill fought Napoleon, so I'm sure a country doctor can get some facts wrong occasionally. But if a previous storyline establishes a historical event that is pivotal in terms of series mythology, then I expect an episode set quite close to that period to have some mention of it. Would you be happy seeing an episode set in 1948 that didn't at least mention WWII? The events of that conflict are still getting referred to today! The Eugenics Wars are along the same lines in Trek history.

Still, I do have to say, people that feel the same way I do have an alternative - don't watch the freakin' show in the first place, then it can't piss you off... That's the option I'll be exercising.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
Posted by Doug Burke:
Since Vulcans subscribe to the Teachings of Surak and therefore Logic they can take almost any position. One could say that Braga is just taking advantage of this. The Vulcans are superior, they know it, the humans pretend their not, why not make it evident to them?

That's exactly my point. They have been elitist and condescending a lot longer than 'Enterprise' has been around.

I agree with Dan Stack's interpretation of the ENT Vulcans.

As do I.

All I do know is sit back, watch it and make fun of it. I know enjoy it in a different way.

An attitude I wish more people would subscribe to.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Calcoran
Doug: Granted, Spock <I>did</I> bash the other humans of the crew on the head with this alleged superiority of logic and of Vulans' POV. But you have to admitt that the very tone of the quotes you gave us is quite different from what we often hear in Enterprise. Somehow, I can't but get the feeling that Spock is either: 1- Much better at humor than we give him credit for, or 2- Stating something that seems so obvious to him that he means no real harm in saying it.

I'd be more willing to go for option # 1, myself.

In Enterprise, most Vulcans sound <I>mean</I>. They do not only consider themselves superior, they make it quite obvious that they despise other cultures (as if they had some doubts about their superiority). <I>That</I>'s quite different (well, in my book at least).

I agree that they are more antagonistic. But then even fifty years ago, Americans were just as antagonistic toward the Soviet Union and others that we now are quite civil with on a regular basis. Just puts more weight on the "people can change in a century" theory.

In a way, why not? For a parallel, it reminds me of the way we've always seen Dwarves and Elves. There are most Elves and Dwarves (WFRP ones for instances), and there is Legolas and Gimli. There's Enterprise's Vulcans and Humans, and there is Spock and Kirk/Bones.

Good analogy! I hadn't even thought of that angle. Another good corrolary would be Kingons and humans compared to Worf and the Enterprise or DS9 crews.

... Hey that was almost on topic, I'm getting better!

Hell, that was more on topic than some of the posts I've made...

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Doug Burke


Really? How about some TOS quotes?

Spock- "A dazzling display of logic."
Kirk- "Didn't think I had it in me, did you Spock?"
Spock- "No sir."

Spock (to McCoy)- "It would be most interesting to impress your memory engrams on a computer, Doctor. The resulting torrential flood of illogic would be most entertaining."

Spock- "The fact that my internal arrangement differs from yours, Doctor, pleases me no end."

Kirk- "At times, you seem almost human."
Spock- "I hardly believe that insults are within your prerogative as my commanding officer."

And that's just the tip of the iceberg...

Uhhh, it was always my opinion that the above comments were meant as jabs between comrades-in-arms, not meant as mean spirited insults. Sure Spock considered himself above the norm when compared to humans, he was more logical, more intelligent, stronger, faster and he new it. But he didn't lord himself over all other beings as the Vulcans do in Enterprise. Their out look towards other races in Enterprise just doesn't seem...Logical to me.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Doug Burke


I never claimed you had. I was merely pointing out the similarity of the complaints fans in general are making now to those made by the same group 15 years ago. The resurfacing of pretty much the same complaints rather contradicts the idea that Star Trek "Did good by the fans" until Enterprise, don't you think?

.

My point was that I have had that argument thrown at me before, I just wanted to say how I felt at the time, and I was very positive toward it. Everyone in my group was.

[Sea Tyger]

I have to say that B&B aren't my favorite people because of their handling of certain issues within the Star Trek universe.

With the Eugenics Wars, I subscribe to the belief that the ppl of the Star Trek 1990s didn't call the warfare in Asia and the Middle East by that name. Each one was probably "tagged" in similar to the way we're doing it now: "the Middle East conflict," the "war in Chechnya." Who's to say what conflicts of this era will be called in 100 years? The 100 Years' War didn't get that name until much later. That said, I would have preferred to hear about an overseas war that the US may or may not have been involved in...it just would have added to the background of the story.

I will admit that I love Enterprise. To me, it's Star Trek. Even with that, the appearance of the Klingons annoys me, as does the Ferengi. Now, "Broken Arrow" and the Ferengi ep were both very good (the Klingon ship in distress one wasn't as such, but it was okay), but I would have preferred to leave the two races out of it.

The Andorians are right on target, and you have to give the writers and B&B some credit for that. The Vulcans...yeah, they're being a little too haughty and jerky, but Dan's explanation of it fits the "evolution" of Vulcans in Trekology perfectly.

My two copper coins.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Phantom
Their out look towards other races in Enterprise just doesn't seem...Logical to me.

Well, I'll just say that it doesn't surprise me too much. Not the first time in the history of Trek that Vulcans have done something illogical.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Phantom
My point was that I have had that argument thrown at me before, I just wanted to say how I felt at the time, and I was very positive toward it. Everyone in my group was.

And I was the same way at the time. But a large majority of Star Trek fans expressed those sentiments, until they got used to the show. I just find it humorous that the same complaints are used today.

[REG]

Originally posted by erhershman
And above all, sit back, relax, and enjoy what I consider to be the best Trek show since TNG. I am a huge fan of Enterprise, and I would watch it even if I was the only person in the world who did. [That's how I feel sometimes anyway... ]

How can I relax and enjoy a show that has so far been unable to impress me? It did for a while in the beginning, even though I have been skeptical of bringing Klingon and Ferengi this early in the timeline. But as with VOYAGER I watched it every Wednesday night, not out of leisure but out of some sick fetish to self-flagellate my eyes and myself while still holding on to the hope of all hopes that the night's episode will impress me.

Heck, I find myself changing channel and enjoy watching the other show The Job starring Denis Leary ... and I hate this guy (based on his past annoying performances which he brought to the show).

In the end, I greatly appreciate being The West Wing fan more and more (which in my local area, airs at the same time as ENTERPRISE).

Note to B&B: Advance the timeline to the start of the Earth-Romulan War already.

[spyone]

Originally posted by Kronok


Having a point is one thing. Resorting to name-calling? Think about it? That is EXACTLY what he has done. If some fans attacked him verbally, fine. Address that, but do it without 3rd grade tactics. In every debate, the first one to really annoy the other usually wins. He has lost it.

If I were in charge of anything, I would understand that one of my first duties is PR.

He has forgotten this simple rule and, I predict, it will be his downfall.

IF you call someone names long enough, they are bound to respond. While I have a preyyt low opinion of Brannon Braga, I can certainly see why he's sick of people calling him an idiot. He's been trying for, like, 5 years? to address it reasonably, and is met with relentless Braga-bashing.

I'm sure he knows his duties include PR, but I'm also sure that he considers the fans he referred to as "canon pornographers" as a lost cause, and I admire that he isn't trying to court absolutely everyone.

And I entirely get his point about the Ferengi. I think they shouldn't have gone there, but nobody ever called them "Ferengi", and only a few people saw them, so they could remain mysterious for a few hundred years.

I like Enterprise fine as SF, but I think it must be regarded as non-canon for Trek. I've seen a persuasive argument that Broken Bow establishes an alternate timeline, one in which our first contact with the Klingons was both earlier and friendlier than the one Kirk and Picard read about in history class.

As for Brannon Braga, he wrote some of my favorite episodes of TNG. However, I never liked his work as Executive producer on Voyager (which was damaged goods when he got it), and I do find remarkable his tendancy to say stupid things in public.
Anybody who thinks continuity isn't important in Star Trek clearly doesn't understand the fan-base.

[spyone]

Originally posted by Fesarius

So, sure, they get hammered for continuity -- but they might get away with more lapses if quality of the series were higher.

YMMV.

Amen.

(And not just to the quoted part.)

[spyone]

Originally posted by Sho-sa Kurita


You just read my mind...plus you can say it in 'polite' company

Not where I'm from.

But "polite" company also abjures the use of "hung up" (as in traffic) or any other comment with sexual connotations, denotations, or overtures.

[spyone]

Originally posted by First of Two
What history of Trek?

Didn't each new episode that mentioned "such-and-so happened 200 years ago" 'change Trek history?'

Doesn't the fact that there's no evidence of any "Eugenics Wars" and no "Voyager 6" (and so "Leningrad" anymore) 'change Trek history?'

No, that just proves that WE are not living Trek History.

I personally think there should not have been a Space Shuttle named Enterprise in the Star Trek universe, since it was named Enterprise largely due to a movement of Trek fans, and we have no evidence of a show called Star Trek existing in the 60s in the Trek Universe.

In fact, I think the greatest honor we can pay Gene is to say that if Gene hadn't created Trek, we would have had the Eugenics Wars and the Bell Riots and the rest of the world-goes-to-hell-at-the-end-of-the-20th-Century stuff. Trek changed it all.

I'm with you on your first point, but if what was happening 200 years ago is somewhat vague, establishing what happened isn't "changing" so much as "defining". The point is that an effort should be made to not contradict things that have already been established.
And, while trying to maintian continuity with the huge body of Trek stuff already aired while writing new stories set in Trek's past is a very tough row to hoe, well..... I'm not the one who told them to do a series set then. Do it right (or at least try) or don't do it at all.

[spyone]

Sorry, but I can't resist.

Originally posted by erhershman
WARNING... LONG RANT... MAY CAUSE EYESTRAIN.
People who have done nothing but criticize Enterprise since it came on don't seem to realize that B&B are NOT responsible for every single thing that happens on the show.

The Captain is responsible for everything that happens on his ship. "I was asleep when the Third Mate ran the ship aground," just doesn't cut it. "The sonar man assured me our path was clear for surfacing," doesn't cut it either.

If you don't want to get blamed for everything that goes wrong, then Executive Producer is not a job you want. Even if you never saw it, never read that script, every frame of every episode is your responsiblity, and if it's wrong it is your fault.
So, if you can't check everything yourself, make sure that the people who check it are people you trust, since it's your neck if they screw up.

[spyone]

Originally posted by erhershman

And as for the guy in Take Me Out to etc. on DS9, there are bound to be exceptions to the norm, even in an enlightened culture like the Vulcans. After all, if you didn't have people who thought they were better than everybody else, how would there be a Vulcan Isolationist Movement? Their basic philosophy is that everyone else is inferior to Vulcans, so Vulcans should have no contact with them.

And after all, if the way I am isn't the best possable way to be, then why would I want to be this way?

I certainly agree that there would be egotistical Vulcans. In fact, I think for a Vulcan to be an egotist is almost .... logical.