BRAGA accuses rabid fans, calls them "Continuity Pornographers"

[spyone]

Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
Posted by Doug Burke:


Isn't Spock half-Human and Half-Vulcan? Well then he wouldn't act Vulcanish all the time.

It did seem to be a recurring theme that Spock had feelings of inferiority (among other Vulcans) due to his human heritage.
See my above post about feelings of superiority.
And remember that the story arc of TOS and the movies was, in large part, about Spock feeling somehow "less" than a Vulcan, coming to see the value (_Equal_ value) of the emotional/intuitve approach taken by Kirk, and finally embracing his human aspect and coming to terms with his humanity after his death. "Tell Mother that I feel fine."

IMO, if I were a Vulcan and someone called me a human, I'd take it as an insult. Hell making reference to someone by calling him the name of another species would be taken as an insult if the specie isn't chosen properly. How would Kirk have liked to be called as brutal as a Klingon?

If the person so calling him were a Klingon, he'd likely take it as it was intended: a compliment. Except of course that Kirk hated the Klingons and would never like to be compared to one.
But Riker would take it as a compliment.
[/B][/QUOTE]

[Phantom]

Originally posted by spyone

I can certainly see why he's sick of people calling him an idiot.

Then I suggest he stops acting like one. And calling the fans names certainly isn't following that advice, is it?

[Kronok]

Thanks for agreeing with me Phantom!!!

Spyone probably said it best (My choice of words was not so eloquent)-

“If you don't want to get blamed for everything that goes wrong, then Executive Producer is not a job you want.”

In a nutshell, he is the PR man. Some of you write about him being fed up with name-calling as an excuse for his actions. Fine. If he was low on the totem pole, he has the write to complain and whine. Once you become the head of anything, you take sh@t.

That’s why you make the big bucks man.

I work at a job were I am basically 2nd in command. I will never move up. My boss’s job pays more and deals with crap and damage control 24/7.

Not worth it.

In my opinion, B&B do not understand their job qualifications.

[C5]

Wait... if I understood correctly what Dan reported, "continuity pornographer" means more or less someone who is obsessed with continuity, right ? (if one meaning of pornography is "horrid or sensational material", then a pornographer is someone who loves or exploits such material, and continuity pornographer means it applied to continuity). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So... where is the insult in there ? It's a rather colourful designation, I agree, but is it really name-calling ? It is not as if he said that these guys like to sexually stimulate themselves over ST continuity (could be said in much less words, but more shockingly... ), or something like that.

Well... my feelings anyway

[Imagus]

Hmm, "continuity pornographer"...

I know a writer who calls it something much more explicit, but in the same vein.

My position is simply that Braga and Berman are actually doing a fairly decent job at a position they cannot possibly be seen to succeed in. If they change too much to suit what they see is needed, they upset the "Roddenberry is god" crowd. Not changing enough will draw accusations of lack of originality from the thinking fans and the critics. It's a very fine line to walk, and IMHO they're just about succeeding.

However, coming out with phrases like this is not going to help him. I can understand his anger (amongst other things, I've seen Joe Stracsynski's response to similar complaints over Babylon 5's fifth season - not to mention the D&D 3E debate), but maybe he needs some Vulcan emotional control training.

Continuity does seem to be a difficult concept for someone raised on episodic tv to deal with, and Trek has about a hundred times as many pitfalls as any other series to deal with. It also has some of the most fundamentalist fans I've seen outside of Dr Who, who are going to jump at every mistake. I did think Braga's original announcement that continuity was irrelevant was a mistake - but then why did they make so much effort over Shadows of P'Jem?

Ok, I'm rambling (lack of sleep will do that to you ), but hopefully you can see my pov...

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

I fail to see the insult. And whether anyone wants to agree or not, fair criticism is one thing. Some of the stuff that has been said about the guy and his work is either plain stupid nit-picking or far far beyond either criticism or decency, and these are the people that comment is aimed at. And he is not required to put up with that simply because he has the job. Why is he not due the same decency that we would expect people to give us? I sure as Hell wouldn't take it sitting down.

I felt he was pretty well restrained. But then I guess some people think it's OK for Braga to sit and take it, but not for the fans. How dare he stick up for himself. How terrible.

[The Highlander]

Originally posted by qerlin
The 'pornographer' thing was silly. As for the rest of it? He's flat-out right -- the fans have been over the top in their criticism of the new show, which doesn't stink anywhere near as badly as most claim.

B&B rightly took heat for an attrocious show, Voyager, but there were plenty who liked it. So if they were giving the audience what they wanted, the criticism of B&B -- which gets much more personal than his responses (see a lot of the posts on this BBS for examples; I'm guilty too).

I have to go with you on this, Qerlin. . .the criticisms of Enterprise were really over the top, as were the criticisms directed at those who critiqued the critics. . . (I should know).

Personally (and I'm bracing myself for the flames soon to come), I've never seen why some get so bent out of shape when "canon" is tampered with. . . nonthing says the storylines have to be ironclad....

[Eric R.]

66 Post and counting and all over Braga

[Doktor Evil]

I think I'm really asking for it... but here it goes again, and I'll try to be polite....

Remember TNG's first season? How it sucked major a**? Well that was ST according to Gene Roddenberry. TNG became watchable when Roddenberry eased his grip on the show and allowed the witers more freedom. And many writers felt that he, hum, had an hard time writing a good story. To quote a an early TNG writer : "he couldn't find a good story even if it were tatooed on his d**k".

Now, I agree that Berman and co (that includes Braga) have churned out horrible stuff from time to time (some Voyager eps, the death of Kirk, etc), but they were responsible for some of Trek's greatest moments : the later TNG seasons, the DS9 Dominion War story arc (Trek at its best IMHO), First Contact, etc.

As for continuity, I think people go nuts. And A LOT of people (more than we think) mix-up proper canon with stuff that isn't, like the novels, RPG material, etc. I think you can categorize continuity in 2 ways : the major stuff and the small details. The major stuff refers to things that have been well-established and where fans would be rightfully angry if it were screwed up. I'm talking issues like making Kirk's birthday in 2260, showing the Gorn as 3-legged nymphettes, saying that Laforge has never been blind, making Picard british , etc. The other category is for the stuff of minimal importance and that can always be explained anyways, like the ridge/no-ridge Klingon thing, the existence of another vessel named Enterprise that we didn't know of, etc.
Those who worry about things like that need a girlfriend (-"but Doktor, didn't you argue to death about in another thread about the hull strength of the Constitution vs the Galaxy?" -"yes, but I have a gf!"

[Doktor Evil]

Oh and also, I don't see what the big fuss about Enterprise Vulcans is about. To me they seem, well, like Vulcans.

[Joe Dizzy]

Originally posted by Doktor Evil

Remember TNG's first season? How it sucked major a**?

Objection. Having just finished the first boxed set DVDs, I have to say S1 had a lot of good ideas, unfortunately held back by ridiculously low production values. It does NOT suck anything! (major or minor)

But if you can accept Kirk walking around in ship invented by interior architects on LSD you should be able to look beyond even the Edo. (I know it's hard. Even I can't watch Justice without shuddering at least once.)

S1 even had some story seeds which were never followed up on by the 'saviours' (????) of TNG. What about the parasites? Armus? Angel One? The friggin' ROMULANS? What was that line all about?
"We. Are. Back." - The Neutral Zone
Back to do what exactly? Talk about great set-up with almost no payoff.

B&B have their drawbacks and their strengths. But I'll never forgive them for phoning in seven years of Voyager. You could just tell that TPTB just didn't give a sh*t about Janeway and her crew. Come season 5 neither did any of them.
But Braga has indeed written some of the most fun eps during TNG's run.

So far ENT looks promising. I have no problem giving B&B a chance of surprising me with meaty stories (as opposed to the trek-history fluff we get to watch now).

on-topic: I think Braga's right. 'Continuity pornographers' really do take themselves WAY too seriously. Being a fan really doesn't mean anything. No matter how much merchandising crap you buy or how much useless information you fill your head with. You're not writing the show. And you're still free not to watch it.
I think fans like to kid themselves that they are in some way valuable to Trek. The only thing that's valuable to Trek is the money people spent on it. Let us not forget that TV shows are a business first.
If we're lucky (and with TOS, TNG and at times DS9 we have been lucky), it comes close to being an art form. It manages to tell stories of relevance.
But it's still a business. It's an easy way to waste an hour per week. It's a TV show. WTH do you expect?


Joe, a fan of good stories (i.e. Trek-tales of yore)

[spyone]

Originally posted by Joe Dizzy


But if you can accept Kirk walking around in ship invented by interior architects on LSD you should be able to look beyond even the Edo. (I know it's hard. Even I can't watch Justice without shuddering at least once.)

And you can join me in ranting about how Picard refused to do the one thing the Prime Directive allows (just beam Wesley out), and instead did something it forbids (try to change their culture).

The main difference, as I can see it, is that B&B have said that they don't think continuity is important, so they aren't really trying for it, which a lot of the fan-base (like me) hears as "We don't give a damn about what YOU like, we're doing this the easy way."

At least in TNG you got the impression that people cared about the fans.

[Phantom]

Just one quesstion,


How can you have a continuing story line without continuity????

Using gaming as an example one of the first rules most GM sections state is "make notes so you can keep everything straight" ie so you can have "c-o-n-t-i-n-u-i-t-y" in your game.

I believe writer's guides state the same thing.

But hey, who am I to question the Great Gods B&B? They know better.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

The only serious continuity violations Enterprise has committed are based on fan dogma, not canon. And Enterprise's internam continuity has been pretty solid so far.

But yeah, let's just crucify them 'cause we don't like how they contradict Joe Blogg's original fanfic Trek timeline, or my dreamed up image of what the Andorians are like, or the explicit statement in novel number 105 that the Vulcans are always nice and cuddly. Oh and let's just prove Braga's point while we're at it.

[spyone]

Originally posted by Capt Daniel Hunter
The only serious continuity violations Enterprise has committed are based on fan dogma, not canon. And Enterprise's internam continuity has been pretty solid so far.

Clearly, I'm in the middle here. While I feel people should cut Braga some slack, I surely don't agree with the statement above.

I didn't have to look far to find a point where Enterprise violates canon.
The first contact with the Klingons was described by Picard as "disasterous" and leading to nearly a century of hostilities.

The contact shown in "Broken Bow" was certainly not "disasterous," and looked favorable to me.

So, whether you dispute the dates or not, the nature of the contact with the Klingons violates canon.

Unless, of course, Enterprise establishes an alternate time-line. After all, if there were no time-travelling Bad Guys From The Future (BGFTF), there would have been no warning to carry to the Klingon homeworld, so there would have been no Klingon ship near Earth and no BGFTF minions for it to be running from, so it would not have crashed in Oklahoma, so.....