Reguarding the TOS SRM

[NobAkimoto]

Since a top speed of "Warp 8" was established for TOS, AND the fact that the shows creators completely INTENDED for the Enterprise-D to be significantly faster than the TOS vessel(And thus the rescaled warp scale), there really shouldn't be any debate as to whether TOS ships were faster or not.

Warp 8 which was the Enterprise's flank speed was 512c. Yes it's not fast enough for them to be making regular trips between Rigel and Antares, but that's hardly anything unique to TOS.(And yes this also includes their lines about "parsecs" and navigating them in mere seconds.)

Consider "Encounter at Farpoint."

The Enterprise-D was said to be making it's way to Deneb on that episode, and Deneb is considered the far side of the Federation.(It's "Frontier" so to speak.) Since the E-D's fuel consumption rates based on the power curves stated in the tech manuals would make it practically impossible for the E-D to reach Deneb in the alloted time considering her launching date on her dedication plaque which is a mere 3 months before.(Note at that rate it'd require the ship to be travelling at about 8000c...) Indrii's also quite a distance from what's established as Federation space(about 30000ly), and the E-D crosses that space in a matter of days.

The speed scaling problem is just a matter of plot driven consistancy.

Then again if you really want to dig up TOS things, you can also have the SFB related stories with the Federation losing thousands of parsecs of space in the General War....

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Hmm, apologies, you didn't make that clear.

Yes, I know the structural component you're referring to.

To suggest that Starfleet put a 'cap' on the vessel's speeds because Kirk got in too much trouble out there seems rather erm, unusual, in my opinion. Especially when the other races would certainly not give up their 'super speeds'. And I seriously doubt Starfleet could have kept such capabilities secret from their enemies.

And you seem to ignore the fact that TNG era ships regularly cross vast areas of space in time periods they can't, according to their specs, possibly do. The Trek Writer's Improbability Drive strikes again.

However, to consider a couple of your other points.

Where in TNG do you find a computer that can tell if a person is lying or a computer that can beam a person back into themselves or even one that travels in time to investigate the past on a fairly regular basis?

Firstly you don't believe they had lie detector technology in TNG? I think you'll find the computers in TNG are quite capable of that function.

Time Travel? The warp speed breakaway technique was pretty much perfected in Kirk's time. What makes you think TNG ships can't do it? Because we haven't seen them do it? Since when was that evidence? Of course they can do it, we just haven't seen them do it.

Transporters. So you think transporter technology has regressed by the TNG era as well? What basis do you have for that assumption? Other than "well we haven't seen them do that".

Psychotricorders. Again, why do you assume they don't have them just because you haven't seen them? Of course, why would you need to use them when you have a skilled telepath on board?

Hey, if you wish to use such an explanation in your campaign then go ahead, that is your right. But in Trek 'canon' TOS ships were slower, and TNG has all the tech TOS had, and more so. I don't agree with your points, but each to their own *shrug*

[chipbsentai]

This is getting out of hand-can I talk to Steve Long about it-perhaps together we can come to an agreement if the manual isnt already published

[Sea Tyger]

You're kidding, right?

If you look at the TOS warp scale, it is based on V = WF^3 * C, where V is the ship's velocity, WF is the ship's warp factor and C is the speed of light. You cube the warp factor, and that is the multiple of the speed of light at which the ship is travelling.

In TNG, they changed the scale. WF 1-9 is now based on V = WF^10/3 * C. You now take the warp factor to the 3-1/3 power (i.e., take it to the 10th power, then cube root it), giving you the multiple of the speed of light. After Warp 9, they appear to use an arbitrary curve that doesn't follow any set mathematical formula that I can determine, with Warp 10 equaling infinity.

These facts are canon, and something tells me Steve isn't going to drop them for someone's fantasies of how they want Trek to look like.

[chipbsentai]

Look. The premise of my thoughts are these:

The ship BEFORE the engine upgrades (there were 3 by the way) was much faster and ALOT of the crew died outside of starfleet's realm of control. I believe that these Warp Field Regulators were emplaced to bring the level of hostile encounters down and to bring the ship under starfleet's control.

What if the ship retained it's original configuration and it was destroyed? Starfleet cannot risk it's most powerful ship and the best crew in the fleet, so under a top secret order, they replace the former nacelles with more efficient-power wise, but slower-utilizing the V = WF^3 * C, scale.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Look if you like the idea then just use it in your campaign. Easy as that. But don't try and tell the rest of us that it's Trek 'fact' because it isn't

And since Steve Long's SRM's are (as far as I know) based as closely on canon as possible, I seriously doubt he'd incorporate such a spurious theory in one.

[Imagus]

It's an interesting idea, but banning superior tech like that doesn't work for me It would actually make sense to me that the globes made the engines more efficient - maybe they were a part of the process that allowed the switch from lithium to dilithium.

Not wanting to do your ideas down (), can I suggest an alternative explanation for the apparent change in speeds? I first came across this one on the Star Trek Cartography website, which has some interesting speculation about distances and speeds.

The basic theory is based on the mention (in the TNG Tech Manual) of warp speeds being affected by the "Cochrane factor" which is the relative density of subspace in the location. The idea is that there are regions of space where the density is such that a ship can travel much faster than might be obvious (1000-10000 times faster!). These areas often form channels between certain locations (such as Earth to Q'on'oS), which makes travel much simpler IF you know where the channel is... This explains NX-01's four day trip to the Klingon homeworld nicely, and the DS9 Earth-Bajor trip, and also much of the TOS inconsistencies.

TNG and later often had ships travelling routes other than those channels affected by this, hence the vessels seem to be much slower.

As an aside, it also explains why the Vulcan star charts are so important in Enterprise, when we already (in the 21st century) know where every star within a couple of hundred light years is! Starfleet at the time simply did not have the technology to detect the channels. By Kirk's time they did.

Your other points are actually outside the realm of the Spacedock manuals, but...

It's not unreasonable to assume that the TNG Federation restricts the use of most lie detection technology (psychotricorders and so on) as an invasion of privacy. Remember it's a very "touchy-feely" organisation, and will be big on rights.

Time travel definitely exists, but it's use is all but forbidden. After Kirk's depradations, the Temporal Prime Directive is in full force, and Lucsly and Dulmer's organisation will ensure nobody pfaffs around with something as inaccurate as the temporal slingshot!

The computer's transporter antics are difficult to explain, but the original Enterprise did have both Scotty and Spock aboard, both of whom were slightly better than later examples of their craft

Welcome to the boards btw, I hope you understand we just love debating things - we do appreciate your input

[Dan Gurden]

I gotta go with Captain Hunter on this one.

Its an interesting concept, just not one I would use as my campaign has TNG vessels as faster than TOS, even with the adjusted warp scale between the two...

I also go with the 'Just because we havn't seen it, doesn't mean its not possible' theory... And as such during my TNG era games;

- PsychoTricorders have been used.

- The computer lie-detector abilities based of internal sensors and a medical database, has been proved to be flawed should the target have opportuniy to prepare... And is far less accurate than an empath (Starfleet still has qualms about using Telepaths without the express permission of the person to be scanned... Other species... are less concerned).

- Time Travel, via slingshot velocities, are still viable, howevre the temporal prime directive prohibits its use, and the DTI (Department of Temporal Investigations enforces this by using the slingshot maneuver themselves, or even from the science station based on the Guardian of Forever's planet...
Not that anyone knows it, but several temporal incursions are dealt with by this group several times a year.
However thanks to faster, more powerful warp drives, the actual maneuver is probably even easier than it was in Kirks time...

- As for Kirk causing starfleet to 'cap' its top speeds to ensure a nice cozy Federation... I have to disagree... As has been said, why should they loose a disadvantage, especially when the need for such an advantage has been shown by the very actions and survival of the crew you state as the causeof concern??? It makes no sence to me...

- Alternatively, you could use a Peter David line (one of the ideas I quite liked), when Admiral Jellico stated that for years, the senior members of Starfleet command felt that many of kirks mission logs were 'embellished'... After all, all that time travel and saving the universe by setting the temporal path right, so that nobody remembers anything? Meeting Abe Lincoln, Leonardo da Vinci and Apollo?? A giant Space Amobea???

"Thanks Jim, but where the REAL report?"

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Originally posted by Imagus

The idea is that there are regions of space where the density is such that a ship can travel much faster than might be obvious (1000-10000 times faster!). These areas often form channels between certain locations (such as Earth to Q'on'oS), which makes travel much simpler IF you know where the channel is

I always liked this explanation. I wish TPTB would give it some 'official' credence

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Originally posted by Imagus

Welcome to the boards btw, I hope you understand we just love debating things - we do appreciate your input

Yeah, we can get pretty passionate about these things

[spyone]

Didn't mean to jump all over a neat idea. I'm all for a creative interpretation of the facts.
However, you did not present this as a neat way to think of things; as a variant of established canon. You seemed to believe that your interpretation was canon, and that is demonstrably not the case.

I'll also mention that I thought you meant the "balls" at the front, and now I'm not 100% sure I know what you mean.

If you think TOS had better tech than TNG, go with that. But don't get confused about whether that notion is canon. And Steve's SRM is going to play as close to canon as possable.

[tonyg]

Originally posted by spyone
I'll also mention that I thought you meant the "balls" at the front, and now I'm not 100% sure I know what you mean.

THis comes from the fact that they changed the model of the enterprise a few times during TOS. At one point there were "ball" on the back on the naceels, and in other instances 'grills".

Addtionally, sometimes there were "poles" projecting from the "balls" at the front of the nacelles.

I got images that show the differences, if anyone want's them.


The problem is since TOS used the same stock footage, differnet version of the model are used in the episodes, often in the same scences.

The Ships of the Galaxzy book actualy did several version on the Constitution-class showing the various models and proposing that these were upgrades/refits on the orginal design.


BTW, I don't buy the "speed limiters" idea. For one thing most evidence points to the ships getting faster thought the series (at least a couple of upgrades during TOS and the films).
Secondly, putting a limiter on every ship becuase of Kirk is stupid. Better (and cheaper) to remove him from command.

But, keep in mind. Kirk wasn't considered a "screw-up" but a "hero". Many things that fans state as Kirk's screw-up didn't necessarily workout that way.

[chipbsentai]

Now here is another question I have.

The computer systems on Enterprise suggest a Monotronic computer system. The Original Series one uses a Duotronic computer. In many manuals and tech reports, the Refitted Enterprise and the entire refited constitution class uses a Multitronic computer system. The Enterprise D uses a Quadratronic system and my investigation reports that the new ships use Quintronic systems.

Voyager uses a bioneural system, which I have designated Biotronic for symplicity's sake

What is the difference and will these issues be addressed in the Upcomming manual?

Will the lower tech systems be included like Quantum Computers and Electronic computer systems?

[Lancer]

Originally posted by chipbsentai
The computer systems on Enterprise suggest a Monotronic computer system. The Original Series one uses a Duotronic computer. In many manuals and tech reports, the Refitted Enterprise and the entire refited constitution class uses a Multitronic computer system. The Enterprise D uses a Quadratronic system and my investigation reports that the new ships use Quintronic systems.

Where did you pick up the terms "Quadratonic" and "Quintronic"? I don't remember hearing or reading these terms anywhere in regard to TNG/DS9-era computers.

AFAIK the TOS-Era computers will be in the new SRM, but will use the Spacedock rules, but with limits on the availability of upgradings, i.e. no new TOS-only rules.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Originally posted by chipbsentai
Now here is another question I have.

The computer systems on Enterprise suggest a Monotronic computer system. The Original Series one uses a Duotronic computer. In many manuals and tech reports, the Refitted Enterprise and the entire refited constitution class uses a Multitronic computer system. The Enterprise D uses a Quadratronic system and my investigation reports that the new ships use Quintronic systems.

The idea that the movie era ships used multitronic systems is a FASA idea, and nothing we've seen onscreen either supports or contradicts this. The existence of monotronic systems is pretty speculative, since we have no idea about the evolution of computer systems. There may not have been any such thing as monotronics. Remember, duotronics was a major breakthrough and was likely a completely new way of computer design. So I would not necessarily assume that monotronics, or variations thereof ever existed.

I always disliked FASA's suggestion that Starfleet used multitronic systems, since that was a sentient computer system, something Starfleet clearly did not have during the movie era, and most likely didn't even have during TNG.

I'm not sure where you're getting the quadrotronic stuff from (it may be the execreble FASA TNG Officers' Manual) but you may be wise to buy the TNG and DS9 tech mahnuals to get more canon information on the modern era Trek tech.

So if you want an easy answer, the answer is if you like this stuff, use it in your campaign. But again, it isn't canon, so it isn't Trek 'fact'

It really comes down to whether you want your game to be based on Trek canon or not.