What use are Elite Professions anyway?

[Calcoran]

The topic is a bit provocative, I agree. Still I am mightily puzzled by this:

It occured to me, lately, that Elite Professions were not systematically <I>that</I> good compared to standard professions. As Hermes stated, they usually have less professional skills. They also have less professional abilities. So what's the point of chosing an Elite Profession?
I mean, although no rule seems to be given for that in the PG, there is no way you can convince me that the game is intended to keep you from undertaking another basic profession! As a matter of fact, any sufficently evolved games allows characters to switch and undertake a new profession.
Consider the Spy/Garak example, as has been used in a related thread. Garak certainly didn't start out as a Merchant. Probably rather as a Rogue or a Soldier, then Spy, then only after his disgrace he switched to Merchant. See? Canon dictates that this has to be possible . Anyhow ... for the sake of this argument, let's consider it possible in CODA, and let us consider that it is similar to switching to an EP with no prerequisites (i.e. 5 picks to switch, and 5 picks compulsorily spent on the profession's skills).

So from a qualitative point of view, which one is better? Having advanced a bit in my base profession, am I better of switching to an Elite Profession (say, spy), or chosing another base profession (for instance, rogue). Of course, story may dictate which profession I take, but as a whole, the base profession seems more promising than the elite one, doesn't it? Should switching to a basic profession cost more picks? How can that be? What's the point of naming them Elite Profession, then? What's your opinion about it then?

[Dan Gurden]

It sounds like you have the wrong end of the stick.

A player may take an Elite profession in ADDITION TO a standard profession. Provided that they meet the minimum pre-requisites for that choice of career.

A player may hold no more than 2 professions at any one time, One standard, and one elite profession. And should the player choose to alter the direction of a characters life and advance as another career, then they loose the ability to advance their previous career at the lower advancement costs thanks to Professional Skills.

Hope that helps, if I understand it all correctly...

[Calcoran]

No more than 2 professions at any one time. That's where the trouble starts, doesn't it?
The PG specifically mentions 1 standard, and 1 elite. In explaining how chosing another EP compells a character to abandon 1 of his 2 current professions, it also implies that 2 elites are alowed, I believe (I don't have the book at hand).
But it doesn't forbid two standard professions, does it? Which brings me back to the question: why is it often better to have 2 standard professions than 1 standard and 1 elite?

[Almos]

I'd just like to know what makes you think that Garak is a Merchant?

He should already be sufficiently glib and persuasive from his time as a Rogue and Spy, and the Tailoring skill could easily be aquired without taking the Merchant profession.

And if he wanted the professional abilities of the Merchant, there's nbothing to stop him. Remember the Innovative edge? Fenommenal thing really! With the Innovative edge you never have to take another basic profession!

But the Professional abilities of Elite Professions can't be aquired through the Innovative edge. What better motivation to advance in one of those glorious Professions?

How about the Poison Use ability of Assassins? Or the Technical Conversion ability of Inventors? Or the Valor ability of Mercenaties? Or the Gain Access ability of Spies? Or Blinding Speed possessed by Weapon Masters?

I don't see how you can possibly overlook something like this...

[Calcoran]

Originally posted by Almos
I'd just like to know what makes you think that Garak is a Merchant?
<snip>

Errrm ... the fact that the Players Guide list him as such?

[Lee T]

The elite profession have some advantages.

First: the exclusive professional abilities that you cannot have without choosing that path and let you develop skills more easily.

Second: the possibilty to change path and aquire new knowledge. If you play a merchant who goes smuggler or a soldier who goes mercenary there is not much change and advantages. But if you're a starfleet command becoming ambassador, a starship medic who goes mercenary, etc... the elite profession are a way of acknowledging in te tech/rule field the fact that your character background is changing and that new skills are now available to him.

Third: Because of point 2 switching from one profession to another is a way to enrich the background of your character

eg: Starship flight control officer, who goes mercenary, who goes smuggler, who goes explorer, who goes envoy, then ambassador can be the life of a character describing how a former starfleet oficer after having been fired has led a life of crime leading him to become smuggler, searching for new world to expend his business untill he finally found one world with wich he fell in love and decided to help and defend untill he became the official ambassador to the federation of this world.

You could do that without the elite class and staying a flight control officer all the time, but it wouldn't be as easy to have the skill and abilites you need and a lot less fun.

In a way this profession system reminds me much more of the Warhammer career devellopment system than the D&D class one.

[Calcoran]

Lee T, all the advantages you mention are nices ones, for sure, but apart from the first one (although some standard professions have nice abilities too, and as a GM I wouldn't allow all my players to have the innovative edge repeatedly ), those advantages apply equally to standard profession!
I think some of us are missing my point here: I am not saying that staying with the same profession during a whole campaign is better than undertaking one EP (or more), I am wondering why in many cases, undertaking a second standard profession can be preferable to undertaking an EP.

Originally posted by Lee T
In a way this profession system reminds me much more of the Warhammer career devellopment system than the D&D class one.

Indeed, and that's part of the reason why I find it rather nice ... were it not for these low value elites . See, Warhammer lets you undertake a new basic profession easily, but its advanced professions are <I>way</I> better than basic ones.

[DavidSnyder]

The players guide is a bit confused on listing people's professions all in all. It lists Ambassador Spock as a Diplomat , where it would seem that he's a Starship Officer who took the Ambassador Elite Profession.

[Lockhart]

Calcoran,

I think the crux of the problem is that you are overlooking that nowhere in the rules does it say you can spend 5 picks to become another basic profession. Sure it says you can spend 5 on page 155 to aquire an elite profession, but that is also the only place in the rules where it says you can change your profession at all. Even in the professions chapter while talking about starship officer elite professions, it gives you no rules for how you would change, instead refering to the advancement chapter. Note also that the table for advancements doesn't list aquiring a new profession.

If instead you want to talk about should you be allowed to switch basic professions, then perhaps we can think of ways to limit the power game effects that might have.

Still, in answer to your musing "I am wondering why in many cases, undertaking a second standard profession can be preferable to undertaking an EP," my response is that since it isn't possible it isn't preferable at all. This isn't D20 where every standard class has a discreet set of abilities, a role, and province in which they reign supreme.

In the coda system, if you want a really varied background you should make an experienced character and use the majority of your first few advancements for nonprofessional skills or professional abilities from other professions. It kind of sucks to say it like this, but this is the Coda way. You'd be playing Icon or D20 or Gurps if you didn't want it this way, right?

Lockhart

[Calcoran]

... I was afraid someone was going to say that ...
Well, of course, it sure solves my problems.
So is that it? Changing one's basic profession is just not permitted? Even d20 is more flexible than that!

[Calcoran]

Errr, no d20 bashing intended there , but one of the strong points of CODA was that professions <I>were</I> supposed to be way more flexible than classes.

[Almos]

I'm slightly offended by your comment to my post Calcoran...
You only commented on the nonessential stuff.

As DavidSnyder pointed out, Spock is listed as a Diplomat, but we all know that he started out as a Starship Science Officer. And since you can't change basic professions Spock is obviously NOT a Diplomat.
The same goes for Garak I think: I think he is a Rogue who has taken the Spy EP. NOT a Merchant.

Now about your claim that D20 is more flexible:
Can a Barbarian aquire the Sneak Attack ability while allthewhile staying a Barbarian? I don't think so...
BUT: A Merchant in CODA CAN aquire the Evasion ability without switching Professions. I think that answers your question, that yes CODA IS more flexible!

EVEN IF... And I want to make this absolutely clear! Even if you are not allowed to switch Basic Professions.

[Lee T]

Professions are way more flexible than class because:

1) you can buy "class feat" even if it's not from your "class". There are no "you want to have someone owe you something then take a noble level" non sense.

2) you can transform some "cross class skill" into "class skill" and there are no forbidden skills for any professions. There are no "you want your warrior to be friend with his horse that's ok but if you want animal empathy then please take a level of ranger because right know you're not alowed to devellop that skill" nonsense.

3) professions do not condition what "saving" "skill" "feat" etc.... goes up with each advancement, you get to decide. There's no "your 15th level diplomat easily dispose of that 1st lvl fighter because you're better at weapons and you've got more hit points" nonsense or "I can only devellop that advanced class when I'll be 12th level because it needs 3 feats I don't have while my friend the fighter will be there much faster" nonsense.

Well, in exchange you've got the "no you can't be a half rogue half merchant, start merchant and be a smuggler or start rogue and be a free trader" nonsense. But I prefer this nonsense to the other ones . Especially since the Elite professions are generally a lot easier to start than the majority of the D&D advanced.


In fact this flexibility is the part of the reason you don't really need to "bi-class" your character.
One of my player, who plays a Starship Enginneer has already planned to take the Technophile/R&D/Breakthrough abilities of the scientist begore beginning to be an inventor. He doesn't need to have two class, or even to let go his engineer path to be a scientist for a while, he will just be a very innovative engineer .

Like somebody on the board already said (in another thread I think) you can consider that the basic professions represent past experience/fields of expertise of the character (so they cannot be change) and elite professions represent futur devellopment (that will bring dynamic to your character devellopment).

I would take CODA over d20 everyday.

On a sidenote, if there is a basic profession you would really want and that doesn't really exist, nothing stops you from selecting 12 skills and some profession abilities to build yours (wich is still a lot easier than when you wanna bend the rules a bit in the d20). You can even decide that your players can switch some of their profession skills for other skills saying that Merchants are not allways the same. And blasphemy of blasphemy, no one will be there to forbid you from letting your player take basic profession as elite profession (though you'll have to be a bit more restrictive on the number of "class skill" for play balance if you don't want your players choosing basic professions every time).

[Sea Tyger]

I would take CODA over d20 everyday.

I suppose this was expected. The d20 bashers just can't help themselves, can they?

Personally, I see no problems with the way the class rules are put together. Sure, you can only ever have on base profession, but that's balanced by the Innovative edge (and I think it's absurd that a GM would limit the character's ability to take Innovative...it takes away from the flexibility of the system). The character has to pay for it (2 picks for the edge and 3 for the ability, so the character has to burn an advancement for something she wants), but it's worth it.

I also disagree that elite professions are "thin." With all of the characters I've built (some with elite professions and many advancements), I haven't seen any glaring weaknesses yet in the system (aside from the poor layout, but that's a different thread).

Personally, if I like a genre, I can just sit back and say, "I accept the flaws." I love D&D...been playing it for 20+ years, and 3e is the best system for it. But it's certainly not a perfect system. I also have to say I enjoy the new Star Wars over the old WEG. Spycraft is the best superspy game I've ever seen. I'm also working on a d20 Space: 1889, but I don't want d20 for everything. Star Trek just isn't designed for it. Hero is the best system for superheroes (although Fuzion does a pretty good job). I'm still playing Boot Hill 3rd Ed. to get my Western fix.

I enjoy all of those systems, despite their flaws. I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face by sticking to a single system for everything.

Now, Calcoran, if you can't get past what you perceive are flaws in the Coda system, you have a couple of choices:

1. Start buying Icon or FASA Trek books.
2. Change it to your liking. If you want your players to be able to spend an advancement to purchase a basic profession, do it. If you don't like how thin the elite professions are, then either allow the character to take abilities from a related base profession or add extra abilities on your own.
3. Make a system that you like, then purchase the Star Trek license and start printing.

[AllenS]

Nowhere in the Player's Guide does it come out and say you cannot have a second basic profession (that I have found). I suspect this is because GM guidelines covering this will be in the Narrator's Guide. However, players ofttimes being a contentious lot, it probably would have been a good idea to state that specifically in the Player's Guide. It has been fairly clear from posts made by Don and Doug that you are only allowed one basic profession.

in the old RPG the Fantasy Trip it says specifically "dead characters may take no actions of any kind". Sometimes you have to be that obvious and direct or someone somewhere will try to argue the point.

Allen