Is "Enterprise" ......Star Trek?

[AllenS]

Originally posted by NobAkimoto


Gene's image might not have been perfect(But I wonder what's with the excessive character assassination of him lately. It's like with historical figures and turning on them visciously. He's only human, the truth's inbetween), but the base message is a sound one. Overcoming differences and finding the similarities, as well as always doing what's "right" even if it doesn't seem the best course of action(and certainly not the easiest) at the time.

I have no argument with that. It's just as wrong to smear Gene Roddenberry as it is to deify him. He was a man- a creative man, a talented writer-but a man. And ONE of the people who made Star Trek what it is...but only one.

This is also seriously off-topic, and so this will be my last post on this matter.

Allen

[Imagus]

NobAkimoto, while you tip onto the anti-Enterprise side of the fence, I think you've got about the right attitude. Personally I think you're a little pessimistic, but then this is all about personal preferences

You mention that there're some good episodes and some bad. Copying old plotlines is actually pretty standard for the first season of any Trek show (I still remember the fuss amongst the hardcore fans when "The Naked Now" was first aired for TNG - "Two episodes in and we get a sequel? Shocking!"), and I think basically gives the writers the chance to establish background and characters before getting into serious story-telling more suited to the era. I keep forgetting "Fortunate Son" when I list off the episodes that seem to be the good ones (probably because I'm more interested in Vulcans and Andorians than merchants) but you're right, it is one of those that promises better to come.

It is annoying when they fall back on things like holograms and Klingons, but it really isn't that big an issue!

Archer is a twit, but I think that's intentional. He's not Picard, a born diplomat, he's an engineer who built a ship and demanded to be the Captain. He's still learning what it tales to be in command on the frontier. Maybe he has the most interesting story of the lot planned?

And I agree on the Enterprise. People are paying far too much attention to the design. When you see it on the screen, it doesn't look that advanced. I'd say the comparison is more of a First World War cruiser (generally quite functional but not sleek) as compared to one from the sixties (sleek, streamlined) or the nineties (optimised for new advances they didn't know about earlier - nuclear power or stealth for example). The TOS and movie Enterprises are still my favourites.

I maintain that the show has a lot of potential. I'll keep watching until it I feel it fails to fulfill it.

[Modem]

I can honest say I’m not a Voyager fan. I’d be a liar if I didn’t say I’ve watched a few episodes and liked them; that’s a prerequisite if you like an actor/character (me, I’m a Dwight Schultz fan, and have been since the A-team, and Barclay…what more needs saying). But even here, the continuity…well I won’t call B&B what they are, but they should have charged with ‘statutory’

Barclay shows up in an episode where the EMH is having a break-down (don’t worry, I’ll get more specific in a moment). The Doc finds out ‘it’s all a dream’ but none the less, Reg tells him “I’m part of the design team on the EMH program” (or something there-abouts). Fast forward: Reg become an intricate part of the Pathfinder Project: test bedding ship designs for the new Defiant-cla…oh, sorry; saw Pathfinder in DS9’s Tech Manual and…well. Anyway, after Voy. is contacted (by Reg himself no less), the Doc says he looked up Barclay’s background…why? He’s already ‘met’ the man, and knows that was part of the EMH creation team; ‘cause he already looked that up…why would he have to look it up again?

Now, I will pay B&B and Ent. a compliment: Thank you B&B; you made a show that makes Voy. look good. Not that I’m going to watch the latter that often, or the former ever (Chris Jerico: “And I mean EEEEVER.”). Rather watch paint dry/cars rust.

[AlexR]

I'm going to just jump in in the middle here, and this seems like a good place to do it.

Originally posted by Modem
The ‘Phase Pistol’/Laser thing: it’s much like the problem I have with ‘the ship’ (that’s coming up). We saw Pike with the laser, we saw his crew with lasers, and in discussion of the footage we heard (roughly), “back then they used lasers”…how hard a concept was this to grasp? Lasers should have been first then slowly (and I mean slooooowly) Phase-weapons could be discussed…but NOT shown (some things just make more sense left ‘as was’; weapons-tech is one). Oh, my rationing for Phase-weapons in this show is similar to REG's explanation for the Akriaprise: they couldn’t think up anything better for the time period, and decided “screw continuity”…and thus, the Phase-pistol was born.

The problem with phase pistols vs. lasers is exactly the same one TOS faced in 1965: the weapons were being intended to do things that lasers simply cannot do. The decision to abandon the term "laser" for Star Trek weaponry was a considered one, not just something done randomly. Now, 35 years later, faced with the same conundrum, the producers made the same decision. "Laser" wouldn't work, and they needed something other than "phaser", so they went with "phase pistol" as a phaser precursor. Was it highly-original terminologically? Nope. But does it work? Yes, it does.

“Akriaprise”: my, that’s a nice new ship…and that’s the problem. See, let me ask you all something: which came first; Lamborghini Countach or the Ford Model T?
That’s my point, by making this ship thusly, they’ve really messed things up; Kirk’s ship looks so archaic now…even in the ‘movie era’.

I don't agree at all here. The sleek, smooth-skinned vessels of the mid-to-late 23rd Century are obviously (to me, anyway) an advancement over the heavily-plated, "industrial"-looking ships of the 22nd. As for Akira, the NX-01 vaguely resembles the Akira from one angle, directly above. From every other angle, NX-01 looks almost nothing like Akira, and it's very easy to imagine a design lineage of NX-01 --> Loknar --> Akyazi --> Akira over a couple of centuries.

I still think it would've been neat if they had used a Daedalus, but I'm in a small minority on that one, and I can deal with that.

Uniforms: Okay, so we go from: ‘pips’, to ‘stripes’, to ‘symbols’, to ‘pips’…don’t think so. No military/organization TMK ever (and I mean eeeeeever) went in this kind of circle. Nope, it chunks.

Actually, over a couple of centuries, real-life militaries have gone through uniform evolutions far more radical...and the old does sometimes return in some form in the new. If anything, Trek's uniforming is too consistent, but this is still Tv and they needed to link it up more for the general audience.

‘Holotech’: WTF…we’ve just crawled off this rock we call Earth, and already we’re dazzled by the first piece of tech we find, instead of focusing on ‘staying alive’?

I expect them to be dazzled on a regular basis by what they find out there.

and final thought: if ‘Enterprise’ is so good, why did Sternbach leave? Hey ‘quit’ or ‘got fired’, the bottom line is; Rick ain’t there no-more. And my best guess is it’s over ‘Ent’ (RS probably disagreed with ‘the vision’ and either quit or was fired…Par’s loss, I assure you). AIA it: spews, blows, chunks, and swallows…if it had any more features, it’d be a kitchen appliance .

Rick was never asked to stay on. To the best of my knowledge, based on his comments, both public and private, it was not a disagreement over the series, because Rick was never even asked to work on it. He was barely spoken to at all, and that speaks poorly of the producers of the show (although he was rehired to work on "Nemesis", so go figure). But I wouldn't use Rick's absence as some stepping-stone to condemn "Enterprise". Let's stick to the salient issues of the show itself, shall we?

So, as somebody said “…you don’t have to watch it”; and I’m not going to…

And that is a choice only you can make.

Me, I'm having far too much fun with "Enterprise" to agree with that choice, but to each his or her own.

Best,
Alex

[Sea Tyger]

Well said, AlexR.

I really enjoy Enterprise, and I don't mind the annoying little inconsistencies that the show has produced (this is coming from a card carrying Trekkie, mind you). I didn't agree with bringing the Klingons into the show, but it's been done well enough and, I think, lays the groundwork for the "70 years of hostility" between the two nations in the 23rd C.

The introduction of the Andorians has been phenomenal, and I certainly look foward to seeing more of them in the future. I hope that we'll eventually be able to meet the Tellarites (and see how they upgrade the race's features) and get an answer to what, exactly is an Alpha Centauran?

On the tech, who cares if they call it a laser or a phase pistol? Right now, we don't even call laser weapons "lasers." They're Directed Energy (DE) Weapons. And to be honest, a laser can't do what the writers want the Trek guns to do (not to mention the fact that a laser doesn't produce a spiffy special effect...the only part of the laser you actually see is it lighting up the hull of the Bad Guy(tm) right before it penetrates it).

Again, if you don't like the show, change the channel. Nuff said.

[Chris Blanchard]

I'm not going to join this argument on one side or the other. I just wanted to point out something to all the people that are saying the Enterprise should be Daedalus-class. Going strictly by continuity, the Daedalus-class is the first FEDERATION starship. Enterprise is not a Federation ship, because the Federation doesn't even exist at this point. Enterprise is strictly a Earth starship.

Just wanted to point that out.

[Korga]

__________________________________________________ __
Sea Tyger

On the tech, who cares if they call it a laser or a phase pistol? Right now, we don't even call laser weapons "lasers." They're Directed Energy (DE) Weapons. And to be honest, a laser can't do what the writers want the Trek guns to do (not to mention the fact that a laser doesn't produce a spiffy special effect...the only part of the laser you actually see is it lighting up the hull of the Bad Guy(tm) right before it penetrates it).
__________________________________________________ __

Thing is Sea Tyger I care, and alot of other people do too.
However the point remains is that that was a major major Screw up...if it looks like crap.... smells like crap... tastes like crap ...what do you think it is ? ...huh? and even though people tell me oh well you know ...you should take it for what it is ...well I think I described it above....I believe I would like to see the source in which you got your Analogy from that "lasers" are called "Directed Energy Weapons".....

__________________________________________________ __
AlexR

The problem with phase pistols vs. lasers is exactly the same one TOS faced in 1965: the weapons were being intended to do things that lasers simply cannot do. The decision to abandon the term "laser" for Star Trek weaponry was a considered one, not just something done randomly. Now, 35 years later, faced with the same conundrum, the producers made the same decision. "Laser" wouldn't work, and they needed something other than "phaser", so they went with "phase pistol" as a phaser precursor. Was it highly-original terminologically? Nope. But does it work? Yes, it does.
__________________________________________________ __


I disagree and I tell ya why.

Lets say you are in world war 2 ok? now it is a known fact that radar was first introduced later in the war (developed By scottish) this was developed for a new partial targeting ability.
lets say that ..... the lasers used in Startrek were that tech...... now it wasnt until much later until HUD was made right? we will say that the phase pistol which is later developed into the phaser is the HUD system....lets say it was also developed in world war 1... you mean to tell me that if you were using the HUD in world war 1 ....you would have gave it up for Radar when it came time for world war 2? somehow I dont think so.

This doesnt work in the least and it is really really hard to choke down.

[Lancer]

Why all this fuss about two words: Laser and Phase-Pistol ? Ohh well, let me throw in my 0.02€:

In all Enterprise epsiodes I have seen so far (all up to and including Detention) the sidearms have been called "phase pistols", not "phasers". Yes, they can fire on a stun setting and yes, they fire a continuous beam, but apart from the similarity in names I can remember no indication on screen, whatsoever, that these weapons function on the same technical basis as 23rd century phasers.
We know next to nothing about the capabilities of the laser weapons seen on TOS.
Now, why then is it that everyone and their Grandma seems to assume these "phase pistols" are more advanced than the TOS lasers ??? Just because they can do things we have never seen on screen during TOS doesn't say that they are really more advanced.


And now on to the name "phase pistol":
In Silent Enemy Reed refers to the Phase Cannons as "phase modulated energy weapons". To me that means these are energy weapons of a kind that's never specified on screen and might well be laser based. "Phase modulated" is simply a sort of FX added to the weapon to make it more powerfull.

Technological progress over the years might well make the phase modulation unnecessary as stronger emitters, etc. increase the efficiency of the basic weapon, leading back to laser sidearms that aren't phase modulated - maybe phase modulation makes the weapons prone to damage, as it requires more (or more complicated) parts in the weapon.
As lasers reached their limits again between the Pike and Kirk eras the phaser, working on a different principal, became the standard sidearm of Starfleet. While similar in name it's not related to the 22nd Century phase pistols.

How does that sound for an explanation ?


Which leaves us with the look of the weapons:
Easy to explain actualy: Phase pistols were a new technology during the Enterprise Era. In order to increase acceptance of this new weapon among it's officers (who were used to EM weapons) Starfleet deliberatly went for a 'stylish' design.
The TOS lasers OTOH might have been designed by Tellarite engineers who went with the 'rugged' look because they simply like to have technology look that way.


And now that I have thought really hard about this problem I can finaly sleep well again after having so many sleepless night because of this "phaser thing" bugging me.

[C5]

I'm really growing sick and tired of this argument about lasers and phase pistols. For heaven's sake, it is one word. Just one word. And beside, correct me if I'm wrong, I think that the lasers appeared only in the proto pilot The Cage, wich may not even be canon. I'm not even sure the word appears in The Menagerie, since only some sequences of The Cage appeared in it.

And to use this argument as the main support of the theory that Enterprise is crap or non-Trek or whatever...well, sorry, but I just don't get it, guys. If you want to blame the series, blame it for the mind meld unknown to Vulcans one century before Spock, the Klingons gaining holotechnology before the Federation, the shaky travel times in Broken Bow, the Denobulans being apparently a founding race of the Federation but having never been seen before in the future, first contact with the Klingons, whatever you like but something that really matters to the continuity... not the use of one word in one episode.
Heck, coming to that, I could pick such differences in names between episodes of TOS (and maybe even TNG and DS9). Does that mean that TOS is crap because it couldn't keep technobabble continuity with itself ? Or is TOS protected from wichever critic you could formulate against it 'cause it was The First ?

Sorry, rant over. Bad day at work only starting, had to vent somewhere

[KNIGHT]

-------------------------------------------
Korga

....I believe I would like to see the source in which you got your Analogy from that "lasers" are called "Directed Energy Weapons".....
-------------------------------------------

Here are some urls for you to look at:

Naval Postgraduate School (Navy college)
http://web.nps.navy.mil/~library/bibs/dewacro.htm

Federation of American Scientists
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/dew.htm

Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~teclib/dewglossary.html

Air Force Safety Center
http://safety.kirtland.af.mil/AFSC/R...ted_energy.htm

The Directed Energy Directorate of the Air Force Research Laboratory
http://www.de.afrl.af.mil/

Directed Energy Missile Defense in Space (Princeton publication)
http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~ota/di...84/8410_n.html

Directed and Kinetic Energy Systems Technology (Defense Technical Information Center(DoD))
http://www.dtic.mil/mctl/WST/Sec4all.pdf

Directed-Energy Weapons (US Army)
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/at.../7-92/appc.pdf


The fact is Phase pistols are, for lack of a better word, prototypes. The plasma/laser pistol is the main weapon in Earth's arsenal (In case you don't know, plasma pistols are laser pistols with an added punch). Enterprise only has a few Phase pistols (the rifles used on the show are plasma rifles). The problem is, you and the rest of your ilk are taking an isolated situation as a reflection of the rest of Earth's arsenal. Phase pistols are, at this point, only on Enterprise and in so R&D lab on Earth. Who knows what the Vulcans have.

P.S. The Cage can only be considered pseudo-canon because footage from it was used in The Menagerie.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by C5


And to use this argument as the main support of the theory that Enterprise is crap or non-Trek or whatever...well, sorry, but I just don't get it, guys. If you want to blame the series, blame it for the mind meld unknown to Vulcans one century before Spock, the Klingons gaining holotechnology before the Federation, the shaky travel times in Broken Bow, the Denobulans being apparently a founding race of the Federation but having never been seen before in the future, first contact with the Klingons, whatever .

Well, I never really thought about the phase pistol thing. But you pretty much hit on most the reasons why I think Enterprise is crap.

[toadkiller]

I live in Iceland and thus have not seen the second half of the season. However, from what I've seen so far I would say that it is quite a bit like Star Trek.

In fact all of the reasons given so far in this thread not to like it would also apply to the earlier series.

* Not internally consistant with the rest of the "star trek universe"
* Uneven story/show quality
* Rushed special effects
* Some actors people don't like
* Sacrifices the "time honored ideals of sci-fi" for ratings and ease of plot resolution.

Star Trek is not a Great Event in the History of Art, nor is it real. Hopefully it is entertaining and explores possible modes of human expression and culture by taking the issues of the time and transplanting them into a fantastic setting. In the best of all possible worlds it does this earning enough ad sales to stay on the air for a few seasons.

If the dreaded powers that be sell out "laser pistols" and the exact date the Vulcan's invented their nifty salute so that the story makes sense to those born after 1980 and thus the show stays on the air - then we should be happy if it can maintain the basic ideals of ST - which this show seems to do.

Because the first time a show doesn't stay on for at least 5 years it is bye, bye Star Trek. If you want to have more impact than simply being a viewer then buy stock in Viacom/Paramount and go to the meetings.

[Silverthorne]

I have never seen the series, but noticed something interesting.. T'pol is aboard the nx-** Enterprise, right. Isn't that also the name of the only person to refuse the seat on the Federation council.. from the movie search for spock..

[Sea Tyger]

I believe I would like to see the source in which you got your Analogy from that "lasers" are called "Directed Energy Weapons".....

Ummm...my "source" is the fact that I work for the Naval Postgraduate School and have sat through a number of conferences that deal with the subject, thank you very much.

And, while you may call it crap, I (and many others) do not. TNG and DS9 had the same problems with canon...Voyager trampled it. Leave it be and don't watch the show, if you don't like it. I did that with the majority of Voyager, but I'm not going to sit here and point out every litte nit and explode it into a flame war.

Enterprise isn't perfect. Heck, there are a lot of things I don't agree with on the show (like first contact with Klingons in 2151). But I think it's a good TV show with characters that I actually have an interest in. So what if their communicators look sleeker than TOS's, or they call their first energy weapon a "phase pistol?" That's not the point of Star Trek. That's never been the point of Star Trek. It's always been about the people: as an example that humanity has a chance to move beyond the strife that's been plaguing us for centuries...the hope that we'll, one day, get it right for a change.

And this petty little flame war of yours shows me that we still have a long way to go.

And Silverthorne, it's T'Pau who is the matriarch of Spock's clan (who refused the Fed Council seat...as said in "Amok Time").

[Imagus]

I'm not sure it quite qualifies as a "flame war," Tyger!

More of a "smoking skirmish" perhaps...

Originally posted by Sea Tyger
And Silverthorne, it's T'Pau who is the matriarch of Spock's clan (who refused the Fed Council seat...as said in "Amok Time").

Rumour had it a year or so ago that it was going to be T'Pau - then they changed their minds for whatever reason... (Probably because it was a little too far into the obsessive end of things...)