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Thread: Is "Enterprise" ......Star Trek?

  1. #16
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    Talking Ok, dude, you've got my blood up now...

    Seriously while I can see your point, Korga, I have to respectfully disagree with most of what you've said. No name calling (honest!), and I certainly won't slag off your spelling! About 90% of board posters on any board make regular errors, and being an occasional proofreader, it really jumps out, so I just learn to grin and bear it I'm sorry AllenS, but you were a little out of order!

    Before I start, I should point out that I like Enterprise, much more than I liked Voyager. While there have been what I see as continuity errors (I can be just as irritated by this) I've learnt to put up with it. There's much about the show that commends itself to me, and it's a personal opinion, yes, but I find it to be much more "Trek" than DS9 (which I loved). Trek to me is about exploration, standing alone against the unknown, overcoming obstacles in the most optimistic manner possible and races co-operating to meet those goals. Enterprise has stuck pretty close to this.

    First of all, I have to agree with Ineti and a couple of the others - if you don't like Enterprise, ignore it. Don't watch it, and don't use it in your game. Just because something is mentioned in the book doesn't mean you have to use it - it's your game, after all!

    Whether Enterprise can be considered canon or not is an issue for the show's producers (I believe their position is "if it was on the screen as live action, it's canon, otherwise it ain't"). Unfortunately, we can only decide what we want to use. In my case, I rewrote ST5 and Voyager substantially, and I ignore various elements of episodes I don't like. I also pretty much ignore anything from novels, tech manuals, fan sites and games - UNLESS I like it.

    You say Roddenberry would have dropped Enterprise at the first error, I have to disagree. I honestly don't think that when Roddenberry first created Trek, he expected it to last as long and become as popular as it did - there are enough continuity clashes in TOS alone to render the whole thing untenable if you take every word as literal.

    Your list of "continuity errors" is interesting... I shall quote before commenting if you don't mind:

    "The meeting of Klingons was is space...not earth" - I'd like to know your source on this. All we know about the first meeting is that it was not a good one and led to a century of war (Picard). I don't believe it's ever been stated on screen when or where this was. And while "Broken Bow" may seem to violate the bad meeting concept, later episodes seem to indicate that the Klingons certainly didn't appreciate it (I think this is due to Klingon concepts of honour, I commented extensively on this elsewhere).

    "why in Gods Green Earth would Christopher Pike use Lasers in the "Cage" when they had the "Phase Pistol" " - interesting question. My argument would be that the term laser was only used in "the Cage" and that it is easier to consider that episode in error (it's one episode, and a lot of other elements were changed before TOS began for real). I can't remember who here suggested it, but another idea is that the phase pistol was produced before practical hand-held lasers, and that those were more effective when they first appeared a couple of decades later. Later phasers may be based in the "phase pistol principle."

    "I dont know about you but wasnt the first long range Explorer ship the SS Valiant?....." - sorry but that's definitely never been stated. IIRC, the Valiant was the first ship to reach the galactic barrier, so it was just the furthest out. It may have been one of the first... (Oh, Evan - there are two Valiants - you're thinking of the Defiant-class USS Valiant )

    "But I ask you now has TNG, DS-9 or Voyager ever gone to the exstent of this much change without explaining it? I think not." - hmm, not sure off the top of my head about TNG and DS9, but Voyager completely rewrote first contact with the Borg. It was established (TNG) that the Enterprise D made first contact in 2365, with the next contact not happening until 2367. In Voyager, 7 of 9 was the daughter of scientists who had been researching the Borg at close range for some time. Anneka Hansen was about 6 at the time of assimilation, 7 is obviously in her late twenties and Voyager first meets her in 2375 - I'm sure you can do the maths! There's also the small matter of the Eugenics War which devastated a large chunk of Earth in 1996 - I didn't see much evidence of it in "Future Tense." These are changes far greater than Enterprise has managed yet...

    "same applies to all Startrek materials and if Roddenberry's approval isnt on it ... it should be scrapped." - err, neither DS9 nor Voyager had Roddenberry's approval. ISTR DS9 didn't get the go ahead until after he was out of the hot seat.

    My point is, really, that's just entertainment. If you don't like something for your game, change it! After all, nothing you create is canon either!
    Jon

    "There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea is asleep and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song.
    Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do."
    THE DOCTOR, "Survival" (Doctor Who)

  2. #17
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    I've used to make it a personnal rule never, ever to interfere in these kind of discussions. But guess i'll have to pull a Captain Kirk on this one.

    Are we arguing with someone who states as his first argument:

    "Enterprise is not Star Trek." Just like that. Without any real explanation.

    In such case, i will end the debate with: "Enterprise is Star Trek and will always be."

    Just for once, i'd like to see someone make a list of all the things he believes to be canon violating so that we can all get to the bottom of it.
    Jesus saves... and takes half damage.
    --+
    (www.btvs-rpg.net)

  3. #18
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    Originally posted by Dan Stack
    While I'm not a moderator in this forum, I would suggest as a person who a good debate that name-calling and insults are not the way to intelligently critique Enterprise.
    Hell, Dan...compared to most bbs's this is tame stuff.
    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

  4. #19
    Ok ......

    I wanna apologize ....I dont know what the H - E - dubble hockeysticks is my problem lately is... generaly I know all this already but .......I thinks I have been letting this build up for too long....and then *** poof *** I go over the deep end.


    thanks for answering replying to this thread but I think the truth is..... is that I needed to vent.......and that wasnt fair to all of you.

    Allen I also wanna apologize to you too...shouldnt have spouted off like that...I just had a rough couple days and wanted to pick a fight .......obviously I succeeded....man I can be such a bone head.


    anyhow Again I apologize
    =/\= Korga =/\=

    Take that torpedo turn it sideways and what?!

  5. #20
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    Group hug!!!!

  6. #21
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    That asn't a fight Korga. This is a fight!

    SMACK!

    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

  7. #22
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    Another one of these threads.

    Okay, I didn't like Voyager and I don't like Enterprise. But as far as canon goes; it is, plain and simple. Anything appearing on the shows no matter how blatantly bad is part of the StarTrek universe. Contradictions? Tough, that's for people to figure out how to create a theory which fits the facts.

    I don't like Enterprise, but what I do enjoy is making fun of it. Another thread made this point. It doesn't matter if mistakes are made as long as people are entertained, and I am.

    I sing along with the intro. music, make fun of Captain Archer's inability to sit in his chair. Point out errors to my friends watching and overall ridicule the show. My point? I enjoy it in a different way and that's what counts.

    C5 makes a good case for TOS, lots and lots of mistakes were made which would render the other series flawed. As a narrator of a game its up to you to choose what you keep and what you drop.

    Posted by Dan Stack:
    Group hug!!!!
    *Shudder*Eviiilll....okie dey?
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all."
    -Joan Robinson, economist

  8. #23
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    I like the look of Enterprise.

    I guess Enterprise haters will just have to learn to live it with the same way some of us had to live with Star Trek: Love Boat... oh, I mean The Next Generation (carpets, bald captain, advice giving black bartender, multiple subplots each episode with guest stars you don't recognize, annoying kid, Gopher Riker, and your cruise director Tasha Yar).

    And such potent moments and enlightened dialog...

    "I feel the crew is tense"

    "No bleep, Troi, we're involved in a battle right now."

    TNG broke many canon elements from TOS, too. It's a cycle of entertainment produced by people who aren't as obsessive. Just change what you want to change and don't worry about it so much.

    Just look at the history of Cochrane as shown in TOS and the First Contact movie...

  9. #24
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    Re: Ok, dude, you've got my blood up now...

    Originally posted by Imagus

    Before I start, I should point out that I like Enterprise, much more than I liked Voyager. While there have been what I see as continuity errors (I can be just as irritated by this) I've learnt to put up with it. There's much about the show that commends itself to me, and it's a personal opinion, yes, but I find it to be much more "Trek" than DS9 (which I loved). Trek to me is about exploration, standing alone against the unknown, overcoming obstacles in the most optimistic manner possible and races co-operating to meet those goals. Enterprise has stuck pretty close to this.

    later. Later phasers may be based in the "phase pistol principle."

    "I dont know about you but wasnt the first long range Explorer ship the SS Valiant?....." - sorry but that's definitely never been stated. IIRC, the Valiant was the first ship to reach the galactic barrier, so it was just the furthest out. It may have been one of the first... (Oh, Evan - there are two Valiants - you're thinking of the Defiant-class USS Valiant )

    "
    that's a great description ( far more accurate than mine ) what in my eyes is trek. Union among the people and exploration.

    Concerning the phaser thing. There is the episode where the Cage is included into an ordinary episode of TOS with Kirk and all ( Do not know the English title, the German one is translated: Spock at court ). how do they call the 'ph/laser' in that episode in the 'old' scenes?

    Oh and of course I just mistyped the date I meant 2069. There is something about it on startrek.com, even a picture.

    and to correct my self, those who do not like Enterprise, gol boldy where no man has gone before, either - its just another way
    We came in peace, for all mankind - Apollo 11

  10. #25
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    Originally posted by Anarchy Bob
    Just for once, i'd like to see someone make a list of all the things he believes to be canon violating so that we can all get to the bottom of it.
    I'm with Bob on this one. Just calmly give us a list of the things you think are canon violations and we'll tell you why you're wrong.

  11. #26

    we see DS9 in "Ro Laren"?!

    ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh really?

    I make fun of Enterprise too

    this is the same schlock that was given as the Motionless Voyager

    "It's Star Trek LUV it!"

    ewwwwww i can't do that

    i cant do that with the tos movies either

    scotty, uhura, pavel, sulua and mccoy where just cardboard characters

    so much could have been done with that series

    same with enterprise

    give me the Daedulus CLASS

  12. #27
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    I handle continuity gliches in my game this way: there aren't any! Yes, that's right, True Believers, no contradictions.

    Now that you're stunned, let me tell you why. In my game al that stuff that happens on screen, happens on screen there as well. In other words, STNG is a holo-show that sorta reflects the reality of the Federation. But it's not perfect just like a modern movie like Blackhawk Down isn't a perfect representationof the Battle of Mogadishu, Somalia.

    It also gives my PCs the advantage of not having to outshine Picard or Kirk or Janeway. It'd be like a Army SF soldier feeling threatened by Rambo. Capiche?

    Later,
    Tony
    Anthony N. Emmel, M.A.
    Learned Scholar & Catholic Gentleman

    U.S.S. Victory NCC-1760
    "England expects that every man will do his duty."

  13. #28
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    Sorry, but people posting things like:

    In the famous words of Captain Kirk (aka Shatner), "Get a life!" The show is fiction. Therefore not real
    and:
    Sorry, guys, but it's also fiction. It ain't real
    really bug me. Do you honestly think people that post their opinions about Star Trek think it's real? Just because it's not real, does this mean that their right to comment upon it is rendered invalid?
    We know Star Trek is fiction! But this doesn't mean that the writers can change the history that has already been discussed in other Star Trek series.
    I can point out continuity errors if I so wish. What I don't expect is other people insulting my common sense and my ability to tell what is real and what is not

  14. #29
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    But this doesn't mean that the writers can change the history that has already been discussed in other Star Trek series.
    Heh, bad statement. The writers CAN change what they want. What I meant to say is, the writers should not be able to or at least pay attention to what has happened.
    I apologise if my previous post came across as hostile, that was not my intention

  15. #30
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    The prob, V, is people go at this canon crap like it is real.

    If it insults you to think people might think less of you..well, I dunno, man. Not much you can do about that.

    AS for being hostile? That's not hostile. Try being the only libertarian whie male that thinks colonialism had some good aspects to it in a liberal arts, all-female, 'men are all rapists' program in college. THAT'S hostile.
    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

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